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It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

nytimes.com

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Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#121

Post by intertextuality »

kurtisc wrote: post #106
imtringued wrote: post #16

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

Where do you find the words to add to your deck? I add words discovered in lessons - which are great for a proper context - but using words from internet sources (the news, etc.) is time consuming and means I keep seeing words from a few narrow niches (politics, economics, slang) without any understanding of how they'll be interpreted.

> is time consuming

Get used to it. Learning a language is time consuming. Nobody ever learned a language by studying it 30 mins per day.

At a beginner level, one can find words through the grammar textbooks and the like.

At intermediate+, you find words through material that you find. For example, news, tv shows, songs, and the like. It's up to you from here on out.

> I keep seeing words from a few narrow niches

The trick is to vary your resources. Read the news, but also read a short fiction book, watch a comedy tv show and then a drama, etc. You should also find resources at your level. If you are a beginner, don't bother reading the news. Even if you look up all the words, they're usually niche and will not help you that much.

One way to combat this is to find a list of the 2k, 3k, 5k most commonly used words and add them to your anki deck.

What I do is I add unknown words from my daily conversations with native speakers.

> without any understanding of how they'll be interpreted

If you see a word in a sentence from a native source, that's a pretty good way to see how it's used. You can also cross-reference with a dictionary or by asking the native speakers you practice with.

When you add a word to your anki flashcard deck, you need to also add sample sentences. It's borderline useless to learn a niche word without examples of how it's used.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#122

Post by bambax »

ido wrote: post #14
bambax wrote: post #11

> And I revel in small triumphs, like discovering that a woolen ball on a sweater is a “boulouche” It's not. It's "bouloche" -- https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/bouloche > When my kids brought home notices telling me to check their hair for “poux” (pronounced “poo”), I correctly deduced that it meant lice. But later, in a first-aid course, I was perplexed when the instructor told us to immediately check an unconscious…

"Check his pulse" would be said as "vérifiez son pouls" and "check if he's got lice", "vérifiez s'il a des poux": it seems hard or impossible for the author to mix them up. As someone who learned German as an adult (which also has lots of homophones + gendered nouns etc) I assure you it's not hard to make such mistakes.

I can't edit my parent comment anymore; I didn't mean that it would be hard for anyone to fail to make the distinction, esp. for people beginning to learn French.

But the author has been in France for 15 years and by her own admission, speaks the language pretty well; so I doubt that she actually had a hard time discriminating between "les poux" and "le pouls" -- she probably thought this play on words was funny, but didn't experience the confusion herself.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#123

Post by intertextuality »

jdietrich wrote: post #55
tambre wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What website/application would you recommend for spaced repetition of vocabulary? I've found the changing Windows logon screens quite nice, since every other day or so there's a new beautiful picture along with a few bubbles of text in German, enabling me to learn a few new words (though I'll probably forget most of them).

Anki is very powerful, but Memrise is a more user-friendly option that includes ready-made card decks for most popular languages. https://www.memrise.com/

You don't want ready-made decks except at the very beginning. Once you get past words like "mom" that have very obvious usage, these decks aren't great because they lack examples and structure.

Instead, one should use Anki to make their own decks with words that they find whilst learning the language.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#124

Post by intertextuality »

tambre wrote: post #39
imtringued wrote: post #16

It's just a matter on how much time you spend learning the language. Even if you only consider the time you spent in school merely learning your own native language those school lessons will add up to thousands of hours. How many adults, who have already "learned" a foreign language, dedicate 6 hours per week purely on further improving their skills in that language for 12 years? If you are worried about not knowing…

What website/application would you recommend for spaced repetition of vocabulary? I've found the changing Windows logon screens quite nice, since every other day or so there's a new beautiful picture along with a few bubbles of text in German, enabling me to learn a few new words (though I'll probably forget most of them).

Anki. See my other comments in this thread, but I can vouch for it after using it for almost 2 years for Korean and now Japanese kanji.

The manual documents it well, and I recommend you only use a ready-made deck for about 3 months at the most. After that you should be making your own word decks.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#125

Post by jperras »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #120
cced wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be nitpicky, but to be precise, “de rien” translates to “from nothing”. Similar expressions in english are “no worries”, “no problem”, or “you’re welcome” . As for speaking a foreign language, you need to take the jump. Know that, you are likely to be judged. However, there are people who find joy in seeing others speak their language and do so in a nurturing environment. You just need to find those people and…

Your translation is word-for-word correct, but I've never heard somebody say "from nothing" in English in a situation where you might say "no worries", "no problem", or "you're welcome". I have heard "It's nothing" though, so I think his translation is fine. Perhaps people don't use it that way in the dialects of English you know?

The more idiomatic translation of "de rien" would be "think nothing of it".

Source: lifelong bilingual in French & English.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#126

Post by stephenhuey »

intertextuality wrote: post #105
hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

> get a long term disability pension just by saying it > but when I record it and play it back, I sound quite soft in the head > Who would have thought that a phrase ... would be such a big problem for me?? :) If this is how you envision yourself with speaking French, then is it any wonder you might be stuck or have issues with certain phrases? Good lord. Learning how to talk like a native in another language is exce…

If there's one thing I remember from my linguistics courses in college, it's that one of the biggest hurdles for adults is that they may have a fear of embarrassment that babies do not. The willingness to practice a ton while making errors is a huge advantage to children (or any adult who just goes for it).

In many English-speaking countries, most people hear foreigners trying to speak English, so we're accustomed to that. French people do hear a lot of non-native speakers of their language as well. But when I lived in Turkey for a summer during college, I made a concerted effort to built up some vocab in a few verb tenses. While I didn't get very far, it was pretty fun since it's so different from the English and Spanish I knew. It was no surprise that the Turks were amused at my pronunciation, etc. But what really stuck out to me was how a group of my Turkish friends were not only tickled, they actually were kind of confused about what they were feeling about how I was sounding until one of them put their finger on it: they thought I sounded like a small child speaking Turkish!

Why did that stand out to me? Because it dawned on me that unlike me, who had heard countless non-native speakers of my own language, they had never ever heard a non-native speaker trying to communicate in Turkish! I was amazed in trying to wrap my head around what that experience was like for them.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#127

Post by snowwindwaves »

cced wrote: post #100
hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

Not to be nitpicky, but to be precise, “de rien” translates to “from nothing”. Similar expressions in english are “no worries”, “no problem”, or “you’re welcome” . As for speaking a foreign language, you need to take the jump. Know that, you are likely to be judged. However, there are people who find joy in seeing others speak their language and do so in a nurturing environment. You just need to find those people and…

De rien I learned was something to say in response to merci (thank you) where the English response is you're welcome and bienvenue is welcome to a place.

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#128

Post by shaggyfrog »

hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

I was in French immersion for 11 years, took classes in high school and university, and then took a long break from it -- about 10 years -- before I went back to it about 5 years ago. At first it was really hard! But things really got better over time. I practice 1-3 times a month with a French language meetup, and I also set my alarm to a French radio station. (If you can do one or both, I highly recommend!)

Yet even last year when I visited France for the first time, I was still somewhat petrified to speak to the locals. After 3 days I got over it, and it started to flow again.

Your angst is natural and common. Accept what you're feeling. You can push through it!

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#129

Post by gooseserbus »

taejo wrote: post #89
bpyne wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An anecdote from a trip to Paris, I walked into a store to look for a gift for someone back home. After making the greeting in French, I started to explain what I was looking for. The woman stopped me. With a dramatic eye roll she said, "Speak English, pleeeease." An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon…

> An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon as we started to ask about a table, she stopped us and said, "No no no no. This will be in English." I was under the impression (having never been to Quebec) that she was in fact breaking the law by doing this.

It's a little shocking that you're under this impression. The Charter of the French Language in Quebec ensures the right of consumers to be informed and served in French. It does not prevent people from serving you in English or any other language for that matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_French_Language

Re: It’s Hard to Learn French in Middle Age

#130

Post by bambax »

hluska wrote: post #95

This is anecdotal and I am a sample of one, so do with this as you will. I have learned to speak French at two particular times. When I was very young, my Grandma Yvette often spoke French to me and I spent three years in French immersion. Now, I am an adult who barely speaks the language, but I have a daughter who I badly want to bless with the French language. So, I’m learning again... I have noticed two things. Th…

> As an adult, I’m damned near petrified to speak the language.

Have a drink or two. Really. I've noticed I'm much better in a foreign language when I'm mildly drunk (or at least I think I am, which helps get past the self-awareness block).

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