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UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

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Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#31
post #28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos

That was done by looking at the tapes afterwards. But hiw.many crimes were actually prevented by the cameras? Do they provably act as a deterrent? In how many cases did the cameras result in help arriving on time?

Only MI5/GCHQ/OSCT can answer your questions with actual numbers. (EDIT) There are several studies on effectiveness of camera surveillance on crime prevention.The UK unlike other nations actually has a lot of material here.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10242694.2011.6...

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#32
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was done by looking at the tapes afterwards. But hiw.many crimes were actually prevented by the cameras? Do they provably act as a deterrent? In how many cases did the cameras result in help arriving on time?

Only MI5/GCHQ/OSCT can answer your questions with actual numbers. (EDIT) There are several studies on effectiveness of camera surveillance on crime prevention.The UK unlike other nations actually has a lot of material here. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10242694.2011.6...

I haven't followed up. Are these numbers published? If not, I would tend to assume that they are too embarrassing to show. But despite my bias, I'm actually curious.

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#34
post #22
post #19

When back in the early 00's the UK wanted to introduce a picture ID card, there were huge protests across the country that resulted in the scheme being shelved indefinitely. It took the UK years to even introduce a picture driving license (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently. They were a single A4 sheet with no picture on it). How ironic that despite the co…

Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos

I'm not disputing any facts if they are indeed facts. I am merely pointing out how the public opinion can be shaped to react differently given the same subject wrapped differently.

I am very sure, inspecting phones has, or will at some point in future be used to stop some crime or terrorist attack, but that's not the point here.

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#35
post #22
post #19

When back in the early 00's the UK wanted to introduce a picture ID card, there were huge protests across the country that resulted in the scheme being shelved indefinitely. It took the UK years to even introduce a picture driving license (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently. They were a single A4 sheet with no picture on it). How ironic that despite the co…

Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos

One case 14 years ago that didn’t prevent a terrorist attack is a terrible reason to give up civil liberties

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#36
post #4

It’s likely referring to routine data collection during police encounters. Michigan started doing something similar awhile ago. Forensic devices were installed in patrol cars and officers could download phone contents during a traffic stop. I’m sure these devices are a lot more advanced now. https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/michigan-police-cellphone-...

> police encounters

That's a euphemism if I've ever heard one ;)

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#37
post #22
post #19

When back in the early 00's the UK wanted to introduce a picture ID card, there were huge protests across the country that resulted in the scheme being shelved indefinitely. It took the UK years to even introduce a picture driving license (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently. They were a single A4 sheet with no picture on it). How ironic that despite the co…

Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos

That doesn't mean its worth it. There is always a tradeoff and I would rather live in a world where I know I am free from surveillance than a world where I am .000001% safer or criminals are caught 10% faster.

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#38
post #33

I'm confused. Can they copy raw data of iPhones? Even if the encryption is not breakable today, it might be in the future.

Full reports hints that they can already read data from iPhones too:

Highlighting the potential value of data from mobile apps, a recent murder investigation in Germany utilized metrics from the apps on individuals’ phone. In that case, Apple’s iPhone health app activity record stated that the suspect was “‘climbing stairs,’ which authorities were able to correlate with the time he would have dragged his victim down the river embankment, and then climbed back up.

I'm not sure if the data comes from physical access to the phone or from asking service providers.

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#39
post #34
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well..CCTV cameras caught the 2005 bomber's at King's Cross Station and helped establish their identities and their full itinerary when cross-referenced with other CCTV videos

I'm not disputing any facts if they are indeed facts. I am merely pointing out how the public opinion can be shaped to react differently given the same subject wrapped differently. I am very sure, inspecting phones has, or will at some point in future be used to stop some crime or terrorist attack, but that's not the point here.

Yes, cameras in public spaces are one thing. Surveillance of private property (personal phones) is a completely different thing. I agree that the latter is terrible.

Re: UK police secretly downloading content from suspects’ phones (2018)

#40
post #19

When back in the early 00's the UK wanted to introduce a picture ID card, there were huge protests across the country that resulted in the scheme being shelved indefinitely. It took the UK years to even introduce a picture driving license (you might have seen the "counterpart" old driving licenses which were in use until very recently. They were a single A4 sheet with no picture on it). How ironic that despite the co…

The National ID Card controversy wasn't simply about a photo-ID card (as noted, UK driving licenses are biometric photo-ID cards—and have been since before the NID was mooted). The real problem was the integration of a National Identity Register, a universal biometric ID database storing numerous non-essential items that was to act as a central authentication point for access to all government (and many corporate) services. Failure to register was to be a criminal offense (in US terms, a felony); failure to update within a week of changing address, ditto (don't ask how this would work for the homeless, or for students and workers living away from home part-time): it was to be carried at all times on pain of a hefty fine: changes to your address had to be reflected in a new physical card (which would be charged for): and a whole bunch more stuff.

Let's just say that it wasn't just a picture ID card; it was the camel's nose under the tent flap for a massively intrusive national database system with huge potential for misuse, abuse, and creeping changes of scope.

Today the UK has a de-facto biometric authentication system in the shape of the Identity and Passport Office database and the DVLA driing license database: between these, there's roughly 90% coverage of the adult population. But because it's opt-in and voluntary, and the police can't at any moment challenge you to produce a card and arrest you instantly if you're not carrying it, it hasn't produced the same push-back.

(As for those CCTV cameras? Most of them are in private premises, subject to GDPR data sharing restrictions. It's actually illegal for a shop CCTV system to cover the pavement outside, for example. The police only have access to them when a crime has been reported and half of them aren't working, as my wife discovered when her bicycle was stolen from right under a cluster of them …)

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