The Remote Manifesto • Hacker News Board

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#51

Post by pferde » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 11:54 AM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #47

tnolet wrote: post #7

However much I like Gitlab, the “disadvantages” section is a joke. Working alone with only video, chat and email is a huge fundamental change in how work is done and I’m pretty sure we as a society don’t really know yet what impact it has on social development, interpersonal skills, empathy, sympathy etc. they should at least acknowledge that.

> what impact it has on social development, interpersonal skills, empathy, sympathy etc. Why is work supposed to provide for that? It's not kindergarden where, in addition to "activities" (ie. job assignments), you're also told who to play with.

It's not about what it's supposed to do. Any time spent among people and communicating with them affects your interpersonal skills, whether it's work, family outings or kindergarten. And human beings have thousands of years of being predominantly among other human beings.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#52

Post by fipar » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 11:58 AM UTC

hnarn wrote: post #2

> For example, onboarding can be more difficult when you're remote, because it involves more self-learning and you're not physically with your new coworkers and fellow new hires. This can cause the first month in a remote role to feel lonely, especially if you're transitioning from a traditional office setting. As someone whose primary experience from going between jobs in IT is that almost the singularly most import…

  I would expect that a significant portion of the money that   a corporation saves by having a "remote only" policy would go   into alleviating the social issues caused by that same   policy. I'm not seeing any of that here, which indicates to   me a company that does not prioritize the well-being of their employees.

With all due respect, I think if you feel that way it's probably because remote work is not something you would enjoy. I've been working remotely on and off for about 16 years, and continuously for the past 10 years, and I can't think of any social issue I've suffered as a consequence of this. On the other hand, I do know it has allowed me to be a lot more present for my children, since most of the times I can arrange the work hours as best fits their life. To me, a remote work is the best way to prioritize my well-being. Again, this is meant with respect, and I understand you may feel the opposite, I just wanted to offer another perspective.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#53

Post by chicob » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 12:07 PM UTC

"Opening up every document for editing by anyone over top-down control of documents."

Does anyone want to comment on this? I don't feel qualified to judge, but isn't this throwing the baby out with the water? Can't privileged access be managed remotely by some network authority, i.e. access granted, revoked and logged?

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#54

Post by millisecond » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 12:17 PM UTC

chicob wrote: post #53

"Opening up every document for editing by anyone over top-down control of documents." Does anyone want to comment on this? I don't feel qualified to judge, but isn't this throwing the baby out with the water? Can't privileged access be managed remotely by some network authority, i.e. access granted, revoked and logged?

Depends on your area of business certainly, but for us (all remote social) it’s a huge time saver. There’s version control and a culture of editing in “suggestion mode” to save us if something goes wrong. But having to wait x hours for someone to get into the office because they’re in another time zone so you can edit what you need can be a real time waster.

At the least you often lose the train of thought or edit is never made, which can be even worse than losing the time.

HR and other sensitive docs excluded of course.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#55

Post by bitL » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 12:51 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #21

hnarn wrote: post #2

> For example, onboarding can be more difficult when you're remote, because it involves more self-learning and you're not physically with your new coworkers and fellow new hires. This can cause the first month in a remote role to feel lonely, especially if you're transitioning from a traditional office setting. As someone whose primary experience from going between jobs in IT is that almost the singularly most import…

> but beyond that it feels like there are so many issues with not being accountable for your employees social well-being that it's hard to know where to start. People looking for remote work - which today does require you to go out of your way to find it - are people who quite voluntarily and explicitly don't want the employer to provide social life for them. If colleagues and office banter is what one seeks, one loo…

You can work on very interesting things remotely, but it takes time/effort to find them & secure them. If you build a superstar profile, even conventional FAANG companies are willing to give you remote work for longer periods of time.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#56

Post by tnolet » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

jl-gitlab wrote: post #36

tnolet wrote: post #7

However much I like Gitlab, the “disadvantages” section is a joke. Working alone with only video, chat and email is a huge fundamental change in how work is done and I’m pretty sure we as a society don’t really know yet what impact it has on social development, interpersonal skills, empathy, sympathy etc. they should at least acknowledge that.

I'm a GitLab employee, and before working here always struggled with remote work. There's a tipping point, though, at an all remote company where when everyone is remote, the communication structures of the company adapt to having clear communication through video, chat, and email. We do a lot of video chat here. It's hard to describe what it's like, but it certainly doesn't feel like we're all locked away in little…

I'm not discarding your personal experience. It might be great. I just have questions on how easily remote working is glamourized by the Silicon Valley / Tech crowd. If I were really cynical, I'd say it's just a massive cost saving effort by tech corporations of which the long term impact is still very vague. I'm not that cynical, I enjoy working remote too on some days, but you catch my drift.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#57

Post by tnolet » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

fyfy18 wrote: post #18

tnolet wrote: post #7

However much I like Gitlab, the “disadvantages” section is a joke. Working alone with only video, chat and email is a huge fundamental change in how work is done and I’m pretty sure we as a society don’t really know yet what impact it has on social development, interpersonal skills, empathy, sympathy etc. they should at least acknowledge that.

There are plenty of existing jobs where people have to spend many hours by themselves. Think about truck drivers, they may spend weeks alone with nothing more than a few minutes chat to a fellow trucker they see at a truck stop.

truckers are outside, travelling, visiting places, constantly exposed to different circumstances and people.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#58

Post by mieseratte » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:13 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #23

baroffoos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That bias already exists, if 2 candidates with the same skill apply and one is asking for a lower pay then they are likely to be picked over the other. Why pay more for the same skill? If you want to have higher chances of being accepted then lowering your costs so you can lower your required pay is a good strategy. I'm fairly sure the gitlab ceo commented before that they don't want to pay people way way over the lo…

Why pay more for the same skill? Because people aren't stupid and when they realise they're being paid less than they're worth they'll leave, and then you'll have to go through the pain of recruiting someone else.

> Because people aren't stupid and when they realise they're being paid less than they're worth they'll leave, and then you'll have to go through the pain of recruiting someone else.

I just took a 20% pay-cut to go work somewhere I thought I might like. There is more to a position than the compensation package.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#59

Post by xtracto » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #33

hnarn wrote: post #2

> For example, onboarding can be more difficult when you're remote, because it involves more self-learning and you're not physically with your new coworkers and fellow new hires. This can cause the first month in a remote role to feel lonely, especially if you're transitioning from a traditional office setting. As someone whose primary experience from going between jobs in IT is that almost the singularly most import…

I prefer to build my social life around the people I choose, not the people I am stuck with.

You ought to have choices to choose.

The problem with remote working is that you are stuck with Whatever people you already knew. And I say this as someone who loves remoting. But most of our friends in the new city we live in are the wife's colleagues and 1 or 2 ex colleague's of mine.

There was a thread in Reddit some time ago, about how difficult it is to make goodfriends on your 30s. Lack of options surely would exacerbate this.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#60

Post by ds206 » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

jypepin wrote: post #5

codegeek wrote: post #4

I feel like that whole Remote issue has become too binary. Either people advocate for complete remote option OR employers mostly don't provide any flexibility when it comes to work location or schedules. I personally believe that human interaction is a key to our well being since humans are not designed to stay in a remote room/office somewhere by themselves. I am not quite on the 100% remote thing to be honest and o…

I think the main issue is that if the company is not 100% committed to remote work, the extra effort it takes to have everything documented and written will probably not happen, and the remote part will not be successful. So it seems like it's just easier to make remote successful if everyone is remote. Kind of like quitting smoking cold turkey vs saying "I'll start by smoking less". I've been remote on a non-remote…

The company I work for just updated their policy to allow each team to pick their own schedules. I'm currently working 3 days in the office and 2 at home. It's been great so far and allows for the best of both worlds. I get the distracted office banter and face-to-face relationships as well as focused productivity at home. I'm really into it.