The Remote Manifesto • Hacker News Board

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#41

Post by a_imho » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 9:00 AM UTC

baroffoos wrote: post #10

jypepin wrote: post #6

My observation is that there are 2 schools of thought about remote salaries. One side will pay SF-based competitive salaries no matter where you are, are the other side will have a "cost of living" adjusted salary. Gitlab is in the latter group. I recently thought about it, and was wondering if this could create some bias / unfair preferential treatment when interviewing and competing with other candidates. If candid…

That bias already exists, if 2 candidates with the same skill apply and one is asking for a lower pay then they are likely to be picked over the other. Why pay more for the same skill? If you want to have higher chances of being accepted then lowering your costs so you can lower your required pay is a good strategy. I'm fairly sure the gitlab ceo commented before that they don't want to pay people way way over the lo…

Surely they can fire people at will? I recall something similar though it might not be from GitLab. A long list of justification why is it good for remote employees and the local economy not to be paid on pair. It was smug and insulting.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#42

Post by xfitm3 » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 9:24 AM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #4

I feel like that whole Remote issue has become too binary. Either people advocate for complete remote option OR employers mostly don't provide any flexibility when it comes to work location or schedules. I personally believe that human interaction is a key to our well being since humans are not designed to stay in a remote room/office somewhere by themselves. I am not quite on the 100% remote thing to be honest and o…

On the contrary. I do not want human interaction, and working remote is the only way I can stay sane. If I was not in tech I would be in a vocational job where I work alone.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#43

Post by ilaksh » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 9:27 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #21

hnarn wrote: post #2

> For example, onboarding can be more difficult when you're remote, because it involves more self-learning and you're not physically with your new coworkers and fellow new hires. This can cause the first month in a remote role to feel lonely, especially if you're transitioning from a traditional office setting. As someone whose primary experience from going between jobs in IT is that almost the singularly most import…

> but beyond that it feels like there are so many issues with not being accountable for your employees social well-being that it's hard to know where to start. People looking for remote work - which today does require you to go out of your way to find it - are people who quite voluntarily and explicitly don't want the employer to provide social life for them. If colleagues and office banter is what one seeks, one loo…

The thing is though with audio or video chat you can visit with your colleagues and office banter all that you (both) want even though you are remote.

Or you can do text chat in Slack about work or whatever interests you. Or interact in a 3D or VR office space. Or play video games if you want. Or meet up at a real life coffee shop.

You just have to get the other people to do it deliberately rather than everyone being automatically forced to do it by constant required physical proximity.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#44

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 9:58 AM UTC

ilaksh wrote: post #43

TeMPOraL wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but beyond that it feels like there are so many issues with not being accountable for your employees social well-being that it's hard to know where to start. People looking for remote work - which today does require you to go out of your way to find it - are people who quite voluntarily and explicitly don't want the employer to provide social life for them. If colleagues and office banter is what one seeks, one loo…

The thing is though with audio or video chat you can visit with your colleagues and office banter all that you (both) want even though you are remote. Or you can do text chat in Slack about work or whatever interests you. Or interact in a 3D or VR office space. Or play video games if you want. Or meet up at a real life coffee shop. You just have to get the other people to do it deliberately rather than everyone being…

> The thing is though with audio or video chat you can visit with your colleagues and office banter all that you (both) want even though you are remote.

Technically yes, though in practice I haven't heard of it happening. There's something... different about it, more distracting. It takes screen space and the noises carry differently - including various grunts and burps that the person over the next desk in RL would not hear, but your Skype buddy will.

The kind of unstructured, background interaction between co-workers that naturally exists in offices is something very hard to replicate in remote setting.

> Or interact in a 3D or VR office space.

This I want to try so hard. I actually upgraded my PC recently with the intent of getting VR gear in the future, and a big motivation here is to explore the experience of shared VR workspaces.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#45

Post by Vinnl » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 9:58 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #21

hnarn wrote: post #2

> For example, onboarding can be more difficult when you're remote, because it involves more self-learning and you're not physically with your new coworkers and fellow new hires. This can cause the first month in a remote role to feel lonely, especially if you're transitioning from a traditional office setting. As someone whose primary experience from going between jobs in IT is that almost the singularly most import…

> but beyond that it feels like there are so many issues with not being accountable for your employees social well-being that it's hard to know where to start. People looking for remote work - which today does require you to go out of your way to find it - are people who quite voluntarily and explicitly don't want the employer to provide social life for them. If colleagues and office banter is what one seeks, one loo…

My primary reason for desiring remote work is less time spent travelling and more interesting companies. The impact on social life on the job is the main downside.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#46

Post by Vinnl » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 10:00 AM UTC

vbsteven wrote: post #22

I wonder how some of the all remote companies handle the legal side of things when it comes to paying salaries and contracts. I've been working as a (partly remote depending on customer) freelancer/contractor for 5 years with my own legal entity setup in Europe to do invoicing and handle my finances. I'm not willing to give that up yet but the thought of working for an all remote company for a longer period than the…

One option is to outsource this to another company, e.g. a US-based company can set up an arrangement with a European company to be the official employer and to handle all the legal stuff, and then to fully dedicate that employee to the actual employer.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#47

Post by pgeorgi » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 10:22 AM UTC

tnolet wrote: post #7

However much I like Gitlab, the “disadvantages” section is a joke. Working alone with only video, chat and email is a huge fundamental change in how work is done and I’m pretty sure we as a society don’t really know yet what impact it has on social development, interpersonal skills, empathy, sympathy etc. they should at least acknowledge that.

> what impact it has on social development, interpersonal skills, empathy, sympathy etc.

Why is work supposed to provide for that? It's not kindergarden where, in addition to "activities" (ie. job assignments), you're also told who to play with.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#48

Post by solatic » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 10:56 AM UTC

baroffoos wrote: post #10

jypepin wrote: post #6

My observation is that there are 2 schools of thought about remote salaries. One side will pay SF-based competitive salaries no matter where you are, are the other side will have a "cost of living" adjusted salary. Gitlab is in the latter group. I recently thought about it, and was wondering if this could create some bias / unfair preferential treatment when interviewing and competing with other candidates. If candid…

That bias already exists, if 2 candidates with the same skill apply and one is asking for a lower pay then they are likely to be picked over the other. Why pay more for the same skill? If you want to have higher chances of being accepted then lowering your costs so you can lower your required pay is a good strategy. I'm fairly sure the gitlab ceo commented before that they don't want to pay people way way over the lo…

> I'm fairly sure the gitlab ceo commented before that they don't want to pay people way way over the local average because it could cause them to have people who don't want to be working there staying because they could never find a new job thats competitive where they are.

This is a cop-out because ultimately whether you are higher paid than the local average is subjective, since a) in most areas, nobody really knows what the local average is, they just have a feeling for it, b) local averages are just that, averages, it's further difficult to judge what salary a specific profile of person (given years of experience, educational background, etc.) can expect in a given local market, c) it is entirely possible to underpay people who wrongfully believe that they are being overpaid, due to information asymmetry and not interviewing with other local companies on a regular basis.

If you're not keeping in touch with your employees, and their happiness, satisfaction, and motivation levels, you cannot possibly know whether your employees perceive themselves as being overpaid or not. And if you're not willing to pay significantly above the local average, you're not going to attract the best talent in a given locality, and since a large part of the motivation for all-remote is to hire the best people you can get around the world, refusing to pay what they could be worth just shoots yourself in the foot as you risk losing them to all-remote companies willing to pay salaries at what is genuinely the market rate.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#49

Post by jypepin » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

a_imho wrote: post #40

jypepin wrote: post #6

My observation is that there are 2 schools of thought about remote salaries. One side will pay SF-based competitive salaries no matter where you are, are the other side will have a "cost of living" adjusted salary. Gitlab is in the latter group. I recently thought about it, and was wondering if this could create some bias / unfair preferential treatment when interviewing and competing with other candidates. If candid…

Could you please list some of the type I companies? I'm at the other end of things and find they are non existent, but maybe I'm searching in the wrong places. Remote is not a protected group [0]. [0] https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

I don't have a list, but Basecamp is the first one that comes to mind and is vocal about it.

More and more startups today advertise that too. Github might?

I think today most SF-based remote companies offer SF-based salary for what I've observed. But I'm not active on the job market so I can't tell for sure!

edit: a quick google search returns a few good links, including some recent HN discussions.

Re: The Remote Manifesto

#50

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 11:24 AM UTC

jypepin wrote: post #6

My observation is that there are 2 schools of thought about remote salaries. One side will pay SF-based competitive salaries no matter where you are, are the other side will have a "cost of living" adjusted salary. Gitlab is in the latter group. I recently thought about it, and was wondering if this could create some bias / unfair preferential treatment when interviewing and competing with other candidates. If candid…

> If candidate A is in SF, and another candidate, B, is in another cheaper area, and Gitlab is trying to decide between the 2 candidates, won't they be leaning toward hiring candidate B because of lower salary? All else being equal.

All else being equal, why would this be wrong? If I can buy a gallon of milk, a TV, or a car based on price/promotion why wouldn't/shouldn't a company be able to seek the best "deal" for them?