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The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

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Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#31

Post by sterlind »

abtinf wrote: post #13
erikpukinskis wrote: post #11

It seems clear to me that the treaty violates the U.S. Constitution and as such, the property in question still belongs to the Cherokee People. It may take some time for the Supreme Court eventually to rule on the matter, but the current property "owners" are criminal trespassers in my view.

> the treaty violates the U.S. Constitution I am not a constitutional law expert, but I believe that under article 6 section 2 (the supremacy clause) treaties are held to be equal to the constitution. Thus, there is a very high bar for a treaty to by nullified based on contradicting the constitution. There is very little case law on this, and I believe the only instance in which an international executive agreement (…

[flagged]

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#32

Post by steve19 »

terryschiavo22 wrote: post #23
steve19 wrote: post #2

It was not until 1924 that all Native Americans became US citizens. Prior to that they first had to give up tribal affiliation to gain US citizenship.

Which is totally reasonable. You can't follow two sets of laws at once.

The European immigrants likely had dual citizenship, so why not the Native Americans? It was extremely unfair and served no purpose.

And regarding your point under two laws. Any American citizen living overseas has to follow both US law and local law. Its not difficult. You don't even need dual citizenship to be in this situation.

If the constitution said nobody could have dual citizenship, like Japan as one of many examples, then that would be something else altogether.

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#33

Post by Tsubasachan »

gumby wrote: post #12

Has anything changed? The man who signed and implemented this lopsided "agreement" was president and is still celebrated by many. His nickname was "the Indian killer". His portrait hangs in the Oval Office.

I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#34

Post by sterlind »

williamstein wrote: post #6
RickJWagner wrote: post #3

I wonder what things would be like if the European settlers hadn't displaced the indigenous Americans. (If the American Indian way of life evolved and was still predominant today.) It's an interesting mental exercise.

There are still millions of native Americans today, some full blood. Go visit the rez. Their culture is beautiful.

Navajo alone is spoken by 200,000 people. I'm learning lushootseed, the Salish language of the Seattle area, to help in its revival. Beautiful phonemes and totally unlike English.. it doesn't seem to have nouns exactly, and all words are made of many particles.

They're teaching it in reservation schools right now.. hopefully in another 15 years there'll be an active speaker community!

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#35

Post by hummel »

steve19 wrote: post #2

It was not until 1924 that all Native Americans became US citizens. Prior to that they first had to give up tribal affiliation to gain US citizenship.

Native Americans had Spanish citizenship almost 300 years earlier and also retained their lands, affiliation, and culture under the law of the Spanish Empire.

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#36

Post by crumpets »

williamstein wrote: post #6
RickJWagner wrote: post #3

I wonder what things would be like if the European settlers hadn't displaced the indigenous Americans. (If the American Indian way of life evolved and was still predominant today.) It's an interesting mental exercise.

There are still millions of native Americans today, some full blood. Go visit the rez. Their culture is beautiful.

Not really the same thing. Most are just a shell of their former culture and independence.

It’s similar to native Hawaiians. Despite significant effort, that culture is being drowned by tourists and the massive non-native population influencing them. Sure, you can celebrate the culture and the language, but it doesn’t even begin to give you a glimpse of what it could have been without European invasions.

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#37

Post by yonaguska »

williamstein wrote: post #6
RickJWagner wrote: post #3

I wonder what things would be like if the European settlers hadn't displaced the indigenous Americans. (If the American Indian way of life evolved and was still predominant today.) It's an interesting mental exercise.

There are still millions of native Americans today, some full blood. Go visit the rez. Their culture is beautiful.

I go to pow-wows annually. It's not all beautiful. There's still lots of racism, drug use and alcoholism. Racism is especially bad, I have friends that we're basically ostracized from their tribes for having non native fathers. The annual pow-wows sometimes feel like one big D.A.R.E. lecture and it's really sad because they talk about how every other generation gets caught up in addiction and grandparents are always raising grandkids.

My mother intentionally never got us properly set up for tribal membership because she didn't want us anywhere near the negative aspects of the culture. (I'm also not even sure if I could qualify despite tracing my ancestry back to the baker rolls.) And she didn't even grow up on the rez, just in Appalachia. It's been a blessing and a curse.

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#38

Post by yonaguska »

codedokode wrote: post #20
jacobolus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Mexico rural indigenous peasants were treated as subhuman garbage. White landowners pretty much did what they liked: murder, rape, theft, kidnapping, forced labor, mass-murder, destruction of whole villages, forced relocation, ... Within living memory, indigenous people would have their property stolen or destroyed by Spanish-speaking thugs with no legal recourse, would be forced into labor, would be murdered or r…

By the way, why did Southern states import slaves from Africa instead of enslaving local people?

It was too difficult, since it was easy for locals that knew the land to just run away and take refuge with other tribes. In Florida, some black slaves notoriously ran away and joined the Seminoles, a tribe that led a pretty notable resistance for sovereignty. This is a simplification, another big factor would have been the fact that many tribes had already established themselves as political entities, expect the five civilized tribes, via trade and intermixing. I would hazard that many white people from the south and southeast would have some native ancestry. Finally, when all blacks we're defacto slaves and free blacks were uncommon, it was easier to identify a run-away. In fact several Southeastern tribes owned slaves themselves and the Cherokee were actually split in their support for the Union vs the Confederacy.

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#39

Post by patrickg_zill »

sterlind wrote: post #31
abtinf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the treaty violates the U.S. Constitution I am not a constitutional law expert, but I believe that under article 6 section 2 (the supremacy clause) treaties are held to be equal to the constitution. Thus, there is a very high bar for a treaty to by nullified based on contradicting the constitution. There is very little case law on this, and I believe the only instance in which an international executive agreement (…

[flagged]

Is there perhaps another country you feel loyalty to already, however?

(Just a guess, but the only person I know in real life with sentiments almost identical to what you have posted is German and identifies strongly with his German background.)

Re: The Treaty That Forced the Cherokee People from Their Homelands Goes on View

#40

Post by gcb0 »

terryschiavo22 wrote: post #23
steve19 wrote: post #2

It was not until 1924 that all Native Americans became US citizens. Prior to that they first had to give up tribal affiliation to gain US citizenship.

Which is totally reasonable. You can't follow two sets of laws at once.

ITT: you're all feeding the troll.
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