Live data from Hacker News

I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

huffpost.com

81–90 of 464 posts

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#81
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good analogy. It's really hard to "measure knowledge," and in my humble opinion, as someone who once was a teacher, tests are one of the hardest ways of doing so.

> tests are one of the hardest ways of doing so I've never understood how someone could master a subject and yet be unable to answer any questions about it. In my experience, people who did well on tests tended to understand the topic, and the people who didn't do well made excuses.

I guess, but, all the same, I see a world of difference between a topical test, designed by a teacher, to measure your understanding of what they just taught you, and these standardized tests that have become so common.

For one, the latter are often bullshit, as TFA points out. For two, they measure all sorts of stuff aside from actual proficiency. If nothing else, unless they took all the same classes - literally the same classes - throughout their school careers to date, no two kids got the same education. As anyone who's got the vaguest training in science can tell you, that kind of uncontrolled variability in your population will destroy any validity your measure might have. And lastly, so often these standardized tests really do have hacky questions put together with hack procedures. For my part, I distinctly remember completely stumping an IQ test proctor when I was a kid (yeah, I had helicopter parents). I had 5 cards, each showing a house, with the sun and shadows in different positions. I was supposed to put them in the correct order. So, naturally, my first move was to ask if the pictures showed the north or south side of the house.

There's no standardized test that measures the kinds of reasoning skills that really matter in life, such as the kind you'd use to make an educated guess that a question is being asked by the kind of people who would assume, unwittingly, that east is always on the right hand side.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#82

I was always afraid to read any classical work because no matter what you think you read, someone will tell you "Actually..." Then one day I read this beautiful quote about the old man and the sea: > “Then there is the other secret. There isn't any symbolism. The sea is the sea. The old man is an old man. The boy is a boy and the fish is a fish. The shark are all sharks no better and no worse. All the symbolism that…

On the one hand I feel Hemingway was being sincere when he said/wrote this quote. On the other hand, part of me feels he was saying this just to be provocative.

Also, I'm not sure anyone has ever told me "Actually..." when I've explained what I thought I read. If this was a teacher/professor of yours he/she did you a huge disservice.

I can think of two reasons (I'm sure there are more) for why artists say what they want to say indirectly.

1) Things tend to stick in our brains the more we have to work to gain that knowledge. If someone imparts knowledge to you and you take it in passively this knowledge tends not to stick around in our brains as well as if you had to struggle to acquire this knowledge.

2) Many times in our history what an artist said or wrote could get that artist killed. As a result, they tended to mask the true meaning of their message using allegory and/or metaphor.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had an art show once. I walked up to a couple debating what a hand in my painting was holding. It wasn't holding anything in my creation. But art, like writing, is subjective.

But you see it was your own blindness that caused you not to realize what the hand was holding, though your subconscious expressed it. Of course you can't see this! Yes I am being sarcastic but I actually heard this kind of comment about my then wife's work.

It isn't all that silly an idea that there is information encoded into the work that the creator didn't intend to be there.

Some of the best literature works with characters rather than plot. I can easily see how an author trying to work accurately with characters based on generic memories of how someone should behave would actually leave a lot of evidence for interpretations they didn't expect.

Author's intent is important, but sometimes even the author will stand up and say their not quite sure what their characters would do in a given situation.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#84
post #54

Former US poet laureate Billy Collins wrote a poem about this sort of thing: The Effort Would anyone care to join me in flicking a few pebbles in the direction of teachers who are fond of asking the question: "What is the poet trying to say?" as if Thomas Hardy and Emily Dickinson had struggled but ultimately failed in their efforts— inarticulate wretches that they were, biting their pens and staring out the window f…

Too bad I can't read it because HN quotes suck on mobile and don't work with the brave browser in Android. @dang fix your mobile css and styling.

Try this instead:

https://hackerweb.app/

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't what art is about though. If you feel there's symbolism to you, then that's that. It isn't anything objective, but the author consciously or unconsciously elicited something.

Sure, but then why take one person's subjective experience and turn it into an entire discipline with questions on standardized tests?

Standardized tests test study skills. It doesn't matter what the topic is.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#86
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good analogy. It's really hard to "measure knowledge," and in my humble opinion, as someone who once was a teacher, tests are one of the hardest ways of doing so.

> tests are one of the hardest ways of doing so I've never understood how someone could master a subject and yet be unable to answer any questions about it. In my experience, people who did well on tests tended to understand the topic, and the people who didn't do well made excuses.

It’s because tests aren’t just testing knowledge. They are testing the ability to express the entirety of that knowledge under completely arbitrary conditions (time limits, schedules, no references, etc.) with outsized consequences for mistakes.

Also good tests are hard to write. I’ve seen T/F questions that could go either way. Multiple choice questions with more than one correct answer. (Professors will tell you to choose the “best” answer. But that’s a matter of opinion in many, if not all, cases.)

I think what someone can DO with their knowledge is more important than what individual bits of knowledge they maintained. I’d rather hire or work with someone who can get things done and knows certain algorithms exist than hire or work with someone who can’t get anything done but can recite the same algorithms from memory. Tests favor the second person. (I was that person in HS calculus. Aced the class without understanding a thing just because I have a gift for remembering and applying rules. I had no idea what I was doing.)

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they're not being asked to produce a justifiable answer. This is multiple choice with only 1 'correct' answer. The only way to really test comprehension is through essay questions but then the complaints on subjectivity are raised and we're back at standardised multiple choice

Britain manages to set questions for the exams taken at ages 16, (17) and 18 with essay-type questions, for most questions of all subjects. There's a complete paper for GCSE (at 16) English here. Choose the June 2017 one, as the November one has the source material omitted due to copyright. https://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/english/gcse/english-languag... You can skip to the last few pages of the mark scheme to get the…

> omitted due to copyright

It is actually omitted due to testcenter policy, to enable reuse. You cannot reuse an exam with its answer key published.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#88

I was always afraid to read any classical work because no matter what you think you read, someone will tell you "Actually..." Then one day I read this beautiful quote about the old man and the sea: > “Then there is the other secret. There isn't any symbolism. The sea is the sea. The old man is an old man. The boy is a boy and the fish is a fish. The shark are all sharks no better and no worse. All the symbolism that…

On the one hand I feel Hemingway was being sincere when he said/wrote this quote. On the other hand, part of me feels he was saying this just to be provocative. Also, I'm not sure anyone has ever told me "Actually..." when I've explained what I thought I read. If this was a teacher/professor of yours he/she did you a huge disservice. I can think of two reasons (I'm sure there are more) for why artists say what they w…

I don't think artists intentionally encode secret messages or deep meanings into their work, but it doesn't necessarily have to be intentional. Or you could just stop caring about intentionality and just acknowledge that you're basically cloudwatching.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#89
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, it makes all works of art more personal and interesting when you read into them. Even if it's not what the author intended, it may be what makes the work enjoyable to you. But I agree that forcing your interpretation on everyone else is pointless and often irritating.

Literary analysis is overly criticized due to poor teaching of humanities. I disagree with some of the interpretations that I have heard of major literary works but no one has ever forced those ideas on me, I have never been censured for proposing an interpretation that differs from another. Bad teaching is a shame but dismissing an entire academic field because you had a poor experience as a child is self-aggrandize…

The people producing art and the people talking about what it means are so very often are mutually exclusive that it is very hard to take the people talking about it seriously.

My experience with literary analysis is being forced to analyze pieces which I often believed didn't have any abstract meaning to speak of and then inventing some nonsense I thought would appeal to the teacher. The criticism is apt because my experience is generally the only experience many people have with the study of languages and literature. If it didn't exist these classes might add value to the lives of the people taking them.

Re: I Can’t Answer Standardized Test Questions About My Own Poems (2017)

#90
post #66

That reminds me of a story of a student who got a homework "Explain the writer's intention". The writing was her father's work. So naturally, she asked her dad for the answer which he replied, "I was thinking at the time of this writing was that I want to finish this goddamn writing ASAP". She present the answer next day and teacher gave her a bad grade.

That's cute but one single thought he had is not even close to a description of overall intent.

I guess the author is wrong then.
Post reply on HN