71–80 of 125 posts
This is the SL-1 reactor site in Idaho. Reactor destroyed by a steam explosion in 1961. Already, the marker looks dated.
[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/SL-1Buri...
Every time this is posted, many comments on this topic echo comments made in the past. This is reassuring, because many people throughout the years will independently arrive at some of the same critiques, as diverse as those critiques may be. There's concerns about the longevity of the artifacts intended to communicate the message, there's concerns about whether the symbolism will be understood to signify danger, and there's concerns about whether the message of danger will be heeded. There's also the argument that drawing overt attention to the site is more risky than concealing its location, and that avoiding the circulation of information about it is wiser than publicizing it and risk it becoming a legend that some may someday seek.
While it's difficult to design a message that transcends time, culture, and biology, and conveys the authority of the writers and the gravity of the warning, violence against intruders conveys the danger to those who value their existence. It won't necessarily protect against malevolence of someone seeking to unearth a weapon, or the arrogance of individuals willing to compel or force others to put themselves in danger in their stead, but the properties of nuclear waste in particular may enable a design that proves fatal to anyone who may enter the protected chamber, such that once they're through, they can never leave. Technology and telecommunications could still be used to extract material from the site, but only the most dedicated adversaries would be able to proceed.
Thinking on this, the obscurity argument is compelling. It relies on the vastness of the planet to approximate random chance, and force dedicated adversaries to devote time and resources in spacetime (in an analogue to cryptography and keyspace), while clearly marking a location aids those are intrigued by it and lets them skip to planning on how to exploit it. In times when a trustworthy defense force may protect the site from adversaries, the public location is hard to exploit, but in times when no such force exists, the obscurity forces an adversary to expend more work than if the location were known.
> We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. For the Level 1 message I suggest a sculpture of two vast and trunkless legs of stone, over a pedestal with the words ‘My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Great poem. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46565/ozymandias
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Mormon belief is that baptism is one of the few strict requirement for entry into Heaven, but that it can also be performed for the dead by volunteer proxies. Even the most obstinate sinners and nonbelievers will gain entry into the lowest-but-still-pleasant level of Heaven if they haven't committed the unpardonable sin[1]... so long as they've been baptized, in person or by proxy. Combine those premises and it becom…
The unpardonable sin seems quite... vaguely specified, and open to endless debate. What sin is a sin against the Holy Ghost? What sin is not?
(Note that despite commenting on this thread and being a Mormon I'm hardly an examplary Mormon in a variety of ways. It's rare that a topic comes up on HN that I know much about though, so may as well contribute some info in the spirit of satisfying intellectual curiosity!)
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To toot my own horn a bit, posted this exact idea in the previous thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19761577 The solution is simple in my view. Just make it dangerous enough that they can't get it no matter how much they would want to loot it. And if they can outsmart the dangers we face them with they must be smart enough to figure out how to deal with the radio activity.
You could just make the area incredibly radioactive, problem solved!
> We have all become very marker-prone, but shouldn't we nevertheless admit that, in the end, despite all we try to do, the most effective "marker" for any intruders will be a relatively limited amount of sickness and death caused by the radioactive waste? In other words, it is largely a self-correcting process if anyone intrudes without appropriate precautions, and it seems unlikely that intrusion on such buried waste would lead to large-scale disasters. An analysis of the likely number of deaths over 10,000 years due to inadvertent intrusion should be conducted. This cost should be weighted against that of the marker system.
I'm not convinced. I guess there are levels of radiation poisoning that have effects immediate enough to make it obvious from whence they came. There are also many levels which are not, but will still end or ruin lives.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mormon belief is that baptism is one of the few strict requirement for entry into Heaven, but that it can also be performed for the dead by volunteer proxies. Even the most obstinate sinners and nonbelievers will gain entry into the lowest-but-still-pleasant level of Heaven if they haven't committed the unpardonable sin[1]... so long as they've been baptized, in person or by proxy. Combine those premises and it becom…
The unpardonable sin seems quite... vaguely specified, and open to endless debate. What sin is a sin against the Holy Ghost? What sin is not?
It would take a crazy man, the kind that would say "the sun does not shine when he sees it", to deny a revelation.
Arguably... Anyone who doesn't believe because they have not seen anything has not sinned. The sin would be, for example, to realize "the Mormons were right!" as you face the gates too paradise and say "I don't believe this. I am an Atheist." As you are staring down the pearly gates.
Basically, knowing you do the wrong things, since you ignore the truth in front of you, and doing it anyway. But you have to see it to really unforgivably sin.
It seems pretty well-specified. It's about internal peace, not external vision.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The unpardonable sin seems quite... vaguely specified, and open to endless debate. What sin is a sin against the Holy Ghost? What sin is not?
In Mormon culture it's understood to be something you can only do if you've had life experiences that should convey extraordinary faith. (IMO GP makes a bigger deal of this particular quirk of Mormon doctrine than is needed for the topic, fwiw.) Judas Iscariot is commonly referenced as an example of someone who as a disciple of Jesus should have believed in His divinity but betrayed Him. Most Mormons aren't concerned…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
To toot my own horn a bit, posted this exact idea in the previous thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19761577 The solution is simple in my view. Just make it dangerous enough that they can't get it no matter how much they would want to loot it. And if they can outsmart the dangers we face them with they must be smart enough to figure out how to deal with the radio activity.
You could just make the area incredibly radioactive, problem solved!
"An analysis of the likely number of deaths over 10,000 years due to inadvertent intrusion should be conducted. This cost should be weighted against that of the marker system."
I think we need only reflect on our own likely response to any conceivable attempt by a previous civilisation to so forewarn us, to realise the futility of our attempting likewise.
