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Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

nintendolife.com

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Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Continuity. Standards and limitations keep the platform usable which makes it valuable to all involved. For walled gardens to be successful, both consumers and developers must both buy into them. So, either people are painfully stupid or a managed platform has some appeal over free ones. Continuity, ease of use, various warranties/guarantees make walled gardens attractive. If consumers have free reign and brick their…

Windows and Mac OS are not walled gardens in this way, although both Apple and Microsoft have shown signs of wanting to make them more so. Despite Windows not being a walled garden it has better continuity than any platform Nintendo has ever made, and ironically not only for Windows (and DOS) software but for most Nintendo platforms too via emulators.

Fair point, that was a poor example/counter example on my part.

What I had in mind was more a long the lines that windows/Mac OS isn't transparent and the consumer has limited control over what it's doing and how to implement things. Furthermore their official app stores are a walled garden of sorts.

Consumers/developers have a good deal of freedom on these platforms and with that comes breakage in various forms. Malware, instability, etc. And to deal with that you have repair shops/programs. System resets, fresh installs etc. Maintenance becomes a responsiblity of the consumer.

Like I said, the lines can move based on context. Moving the needle further towards freedom for developers/consumers gets you *nix systems - which is harder for your average consumer to maintain/use. Moving away gets you iphones/consoles, etc which "just work" and flaws in software/hardware handled by the manufacturer.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#82
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Nintendo were always like this does not mean it is okay. If there's anything wrong with this story it's how everyone seems to silently accept it is okay for a company to tell you what you can run on the hardware that you "buy" but not really own.

That's not the story at all. Rajan entered a voluntary agreement with Nintendo, through which his game would be distributed on their platform. He deliberately deceived them about the presence of a potentially security-critical feature, thereby breaching that agreement; Nintendo took the perfectly reasonable decision to remove his game from their platform. There is a perfectly reasonable debate to be had about bootloa…

So all one needs to do to make exploits/jailbreaks/backup loaders for switch is to get a Nintendo developer account? Sounds like a win

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#83

The narrative in the article also misses the following point, which I've seen many times over the years, in both game dev and non-game dev shops: It is massively unprofessional to ship an Easter Egg without broad consent to do so. Planning a fun "secret" for your users? Great! Surprising people involved in the publishing pipeline , esp. in a "will I get caught" way? Not so great. That's where Rajan went off the rails…

Indeed. Although this isn't sexually explicit, it reminds me of the trouble Rockstar got in after the Hot Coffee fiasco. Their publisher had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars. (Edit: pkroll is correct, the final penalties were $21 million.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_mod

>it reminds me of the trouble Rockstar got in after the Hot Coffee fiasco

In that in both cases the backlash is more ridiculous than the Easter egg itself?

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The QR Codes were likely removed because they were cumbersome. I'm not convinced Nintendo was involved. There's a Megaman clone for the DSi version which requires you to scan more than 100 (!) QR codes. That's not fun, and even as an edge case, it's not an experience you want anyone to have with your product. Better to push them to the central server.

There's a chance Cubic Ninja has made Nintendo weary of QR codes in third party software.

That's very possible too, but other 3DS games still use them, and hackers have found plenty of other entrypoints since Cubic Ninja.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the story at all. Rajan entered a voluntary agreement with Nintendo, through which his game would be distributed on their platform. He deliberately deceived them about the presence of a potentially security-critical feature, thereby breaching that agreement; Nintendo took the perfectly reasonable decision to remove his game from their platform. There is a perfectly reasonable debate to be had about bootloa…

So all one needs to do to make exploits/jailbreaks/backup loaders for switch is to get a Nintendo developer account? Sounds like a win

Apparently, getting a Nintendo developer account is pretty difficult. You have to pitch a specific game to them and follow a bunch of rules to make your game and code secure. That's also why Nintendo treated this incident as such a big deal - they are very strict about access to the platform, and this blatantly broke their rules.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, just like developers never make games for Windows PC.

Or like they already don't make them for the Switch... https://www.reddit.com/r/SwitchPirates/comments/9lspva/compl...

Switch piracy is massively easier than on PC. You just have to hack the console once and now you have access to every game. Also the games are signed by nintendo and the piracy installers verify that no one has modified the game since nintendo verified it so there is no risk of malware

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#87

> you can see why Nintendo would take issue with its implementation Actually, I don't see why. The interpreter only runs inside his game. It doesn't root the machine. Why would anyone object to this?

The implementation is based on mruby, which is riddled with bugs. I spent some time reversing A Dark Room before it got removed. I am confident that there are bugs allowing ROP, from which point getting CFW is a matter of privesc. We have privesc to bootrom on every firmware version up to 7.x (inclusive). This is obviously bad for nintendo.

The games themselves run in a sandbox and should not have access to the greater OS, hypervisor or arm trustzone which are on the switch.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can purchase a BASIC interpreter on the 3DS eShop. It's called SmileBASIC, and it's pretty full featured. http://smilebasic.com/en/ It doesn't make intuitive sense to me why a BASIC interpreter would be allowed, but not a Ruby interpreter. The difference is likely that Nintendo was never informed about the Ruby interpreter. While I wish everything was user-modifiable, I'm generally okay with game consoles being l…

Which was then used to enable privilege escalation in an exploit. https://mrnbayoh.github.io/basicsploit/ Nintendo is doing far more to prevent piracy and homebrew than they ever have before. It's no surprise to anybody who's familiar with this stuff that they aren't okay with arbitrary code execution, especially if none of the interpreter code was vetted/audited by anybody security conscious. I'm even surprised so m…

Oh, heh, I hadn't heard about that exploit!

I will point out that the Switch already supports untrusted and unvetted code execution—it's called Javascript. The Nintendo Switch may appear to not have a web browser, but it pops up when you try to log into a captive portal. Without it, no one would be able to use public wifi hotspots.

I will also note that Nintendo hasn't exactly done a great job at preventing piracy or homebrew on the Switch—both are available provided you have a somewhat older model, and on the latest firmware even.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#89

> you can see why Nintendo would take issue with its implementation Actually, I don't see why. The interpreter only runs inside his game. It doesn't root the machine. Why would anyone object to this?

The implementation is based on mruby, which is riddled with bugs. I spent some time reversing A Dark Room before it got removed. I am confident that there are bugs allowing ROP, from which point getting CFW is a matter of privesc. We have privesc to bootrom on every firmware version up to 7.x (inclusive). This is obviously bad for nintendo.

Why is this obviously bad for Nintendo?

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Although this isn't sexually explicit, it reminds me of the trouble Rockstar got in after the Hot Coffee fiasco. Their publisher had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars. (Edit: pkroll is correct, the final penalties were $21 million.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_mod

>it reminds me of the trouble Rockstar got in after the Hot Coffee fiasco In that in both cases the backlash is more ridiculous than the Easter egg itself?

Easter egg's that end up costing a a fortune.
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