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Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#121

Post by skybrian »

mises wrote: post #115
okmokmz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this to hold true you need to buy into the traditional gender stereotypes

The fact that you disagree with "traditional" gender stereotypes does not mean they have not held true for large parts of history. The reasons for this are debatable, as are its merits, but it is still a part of history.

But if you actually read history, sometimes the stereotypes were the opposite of what they are today. Traditional thinking as we know it now was often invented quite recently.

From what I've read, riding fast horses was much more popular with men before cars.

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#122

Post by p1esk »

pavlov wrote: post #98
p1esk wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stick horse riding is neither new nor cool in 2019.

Thousands of pre-teens disagree.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you do a poll of random 12yo girls those who think it's "cool" will be a rounding error.

For the record, I'm all for fun physical activities like this, just don't try to compare it to rock'n'roll.

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#123

Post by httpsterio »

pakastin wrote: post #95
pjc50 wrote: post #40

So as an occasional (male) rider of real horses, there's something I've always wondered about: how did the recreation become so gendered? Up until about the middle of the 20th century there was still utilitarian and military horse riding. Men would learn to ride. Now it seems to be culturally associated almost entirely with young upper-middle-class girls or middle-aged women. Is this the result of toy marketing (My L…

We have lots of horses here in Finland.

Thank you for this insight.

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#124

Post by okmokmz »

mises wrote: post #115
okmokmz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this to hold true you need to buy into the traditional gender stereotypes

The fact that you disagree with "traditional" gender stereotypes does not mean they have not held true for large parts of history. The reasons for this are debatable, as are its merits, but it is still a part of history.

>The fact that you disagree with "traditional" gender stereotypes does not mean they have not held true for large parts of history

I didn't take any position.... I simply said that for that argument to hold true you need to believe traditional gender stereotypes. Of course, as with every topic on this site recently, someone downvoted after being confronted with an opinion that made them uncomfortable or didn't exactly align with their own despite it being relevant

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#125

Post by pge »

falcolas wrote: post #82
pjc50 wrote: post #40

So as an occasional (male) rider of real horses, there's something I've always wondered about: how did the recreation become so gendered? Up until about the middle of the 20th century there was still utilitarian and military horse riding. Men would learn to ride. Now it seems to be culturally associated almost entirely with young upper-middle-class girls or middle-aged women. Is this the result of toy marketing (My L…

In the northwest US, there's a good split between men and women riding horses, the primary difference seems to be the competitions. Men seem to focus on events where the goal is on the rider's other abilities, such as roping, while women seem to focus on events that focus on riding skills, such as barrel racing and jumping. There's also very few younger men who do dressage style events. Of course, we still have an ac…

Aren't the events themselves divided by gender? (i.e. what your are describing is a result of the way competitions are structured, not a symptom of preference) I don't live in a horse area but have family that ride high school rodeo out west, and I thought rodeo events were divided by gender so that women do barrel racing, and men do roping (for example).

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#126

Post by tzs »

pjc50 wrote: post #40

So as an occasional (male) rider of real horses, there's something I've always wondered about: how did the recreation become so gendered? Up until about the middle of the 20th century there was still utilitarian and military horse riding. Men would learn to ride. Now it seems to be culturally associated almost entirely with young upper-middle-class girls or middle-aged women. Is this the result of toy marketing (My L…

> Possibly Finland is too cold to have a regular horse culture?

Finland's level of cold doesn't preclude horse culture.

Finland only gets down to -50°C in its coldest regions. There are horse breeds that laugh at calling that cold. For example the Siberian Yakutian [1], which are kept unstabled year-round in places that regularly go down to -70°C. (+38°C in summer, so these things deal with a 108°C range!)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakutian_horse

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#127

Post by mises2 »

okmokmz wrote: post #124
mises wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you disagree with "traditional" gender stereotypes does not mean they have not held true for large parts of history. The reasons for this are debatable, as are its merits, but it is still a part of history.

>The fact that you disagree with "traditional" gender stereotypes does not mean they have not held true for large parts of history I didn't take any position.... I simply said that for that argument to hold true you need to believe traditional gender stereotypes. Of course, as with every topic on this site recently, someone downvoted after being confronted with an opinion that made them uncomfortable or didn't exactl…

Didn't downvote. You were positioning it as if it were a rebuttal to the above statement. You also didn't express a full opinion on whether such stereotypes are good or bad, you simply stated that they were a precondition to the statement to which you were replying. I don't want to debate this too much, as I have been admonished to "please not start generic flamewars", but would appreciate the opportunity to debate. Keybase in profile; feel free to reach out.

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#128

Post by jessaustin »

dmlorenzetti wrote: post #67
ip26 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a bystander, there appears to be an inherent, magnetic attraction for some young girls. It's not exactly recent. Black Beauty well predates MLP.

Not saying your main point is wrong, but Black Beauty wasn't written to appeal to young girls. It is an urgent call to treat horses better, and has been called "the most influential anticruelty novel of all time." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Beauty

As a young boy I certainly cried when reading that book.

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#129

Post by thaumasiotes »

pjc50 wrote: post #40

So as an occasional (male) rider of real horses, there's something I've always wondered about: how did the recreation become so gendered? Up until about the middle of the 20th century there was still utilitarian and military horse riding. Men would learn to ride. Now it seems to be culturally associated almost entirely with young upper-middle-class girls or middle-aged women. Is this the result of toy marketing (My L…

> What interests me about this Finnish subculture is that it's perfectly cloned the "horse culture", just without any actual horses. It's very close to a cargo cult. Possibly Finland is too cold to have a regular horse culture?

I assumed this was why the hobbyhorse culture was female -- whatever the reasons are for horses to be a female interest, hobbyhorses are an imitation and necessarily target the same demographic.

Horses are expensive; it seems natural to me that enthusiasts who don't have real horses might be drawn to an imitation.

Re: Finland’s Hobbyhorse Girls

#130

Post by mises »

skybrian wrote: post #121
mises wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you disagree with "traditional" gender stereotypes does not mean they have not held true for large parts of history. The reasons for this are debatable, as are its merits, but it is still a part of history.

But if you actually read history, sometimes the stereotypes were the opposite of what they are today. Traditional thinking as we know it now was often invented quite recently. From what I've read, riding fast horses was much more popular with men before cars.

> sometimes the stereotypes were the opposite of what they are today.

Correct, and this is the reason for which I qualified my statement. They do, however, apply to the section where western "horse culture" as is being debated arose.

I commented on some of this already, and don't want to pollute the comments too much. Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19780759

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