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Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

darlinghq.org

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Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#11

Post by scottjg »

asark wrote: post #8
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac. Rely on some developer(s) spend 10,000 hours of their time for free developing a Mac emulation layer, or go on eBay and buy a $600 used Mac to test on...

It may still be too expensive for devs in ( very ) developing countries or whatever, but I'm pretty sure there are (paid) remote desktop solutions for this. Also you can snag an old mac mini for well under $600, where I am. Like $200-300. It won't be good but that's probably better for testing anyway.

I offer a service that provides you with your own macOS VM, running on real Mac hardware. https://zeromac.com It's billed by the hour, so if you just need to quickly test something, it's pretty cheap. Buying an older mac may be more economical though if you need to develop software long term.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#12

Post by gchamonlive »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #3
peter_d_sherman wrote: post #2

Something like this is sorely needed by the open-source, not-for-profit, shoestring-resources, cross-platform development community... For example, let's say that I'm writing some cross-platform open source software. And let's say that I am developing this software on a Windows or Linux Box. Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac (a scenario like this is more common than you woul…

> Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac. Rely on some developer(s) spend 10,000 hours of their time for free developing a Mac emulation layer, or go on eBay and buy a $600 used Mac to test on...

It may also be a matter of principle. I won't buy macs even though they are sexy and I have the money for it because I don't agree with its practices. My theoretical customers shouldn't suffer from it though

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#13

Post by lostgame »

peter_d_sherman wrote: post #2

Something like this is sorely needed by the open-source, not-for-profit, shoestring-resources, cross-platform development community... For example, let's say that I'm writing some cross-platform open source software. And let's say that I am developing this software on a Windows or Linux Box. Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac (a scenario like this is more common than you woul…

Generally different platform builds are handled by different developers - the codebase has to be modularized to be ported from Windows, to, say, Linux, to start, same with the UI.

If you're already porting to Linux, you're already dealing with a UNIX executable, which makes it at least slightly easier to port to MacOS.

There are also virtualization services available where you can rent dev time, and decent and upgradeable Macs are not that expensive second hand.

I dev on MacOS all the time, and have the same issue with Windows. These days I try to write everything as a PWA to start so I especially don't have to deal with extreme UI/UX pains.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#14

Post by macdice »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #3
peter_d_sherman wrote: post #2

Something like this is sorely needed by the open-source, not-for-profit, shoestring-resources, cross-platform development community... For example, let's say that I'm writing some cross-platform open source software. And let's say that I am developing this software on a Windows or Linux Box. Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac (a scenario like this is more common than you woul…

> Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac. Rely on some developer(s) spend 10,000 hours of their time for free developing a Mac emulation layer, or go on eBay and buy a $600 used Mac to test on...

Or use one of the CI providers that will test your stuff on macOS (alongside Windows, FreeBSD, ...). Possibly for free, if your stuff is open source. I use that for Windows, which I don't personally use at all, and it finds bugs and problems all the time. I wish someone would provide free (!) CI for some rarer OSes and CPU architectures too, but I can dream.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#15

Post by lostgame »

I wish I had the time to contribute to this. Getting Logic running on linux would let me ditch the Apple hardware.

It's usefulness is entirely limited to the implementation of the core library frameworks such as Core Image, Audio, MIDI, Animation, Data, etc...which will be very, very difficult, I think, while maintaining FOSS status.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#16

Post by viraptor »

macdice wrote: post #14
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac. Rely on some developer(s) spend 10,000 hours of their time for free developing a Mac emulation layer, or go on eBay and buy a $600 used Mac to test on...

Or use one of the CI providers that will test your stuff on macOS (alongside Windows, FreeBSD, ...). Possibly for free, if your stuff is open source. I use that for Windows, which I don't personally use at all, and it finds bugs and problems all the time. I wish someone would provide free (!) CI for some rarer OSes and CPU architectures too, but I can dream.

You can't fully test things this way. Not enough to make a serious release anyway. You can easily pass all tests while not being able to even start the app. You need at least one person with the real hardware to do testing.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#17

Post by linguae »

What would be amazing is if Darling could join forces with the long-running GNUstep project in order to provide access to the Cocoa APIs. This would provide a means to run Cocoa apps on Linux, which will make Linux a more attractive operating system for prospective Mac converts and may also increase the popularity of GNUstep. Also, with many Mac users expressing anxieties about the future of the Mac given Apple's business decisions under Tim Cook, a combination of Darling and GNUstep would provide Mac users an option to still use the apps they have invested in, just in case Apple neglects the Mac or makes radical decisions that would negatively impact Mac users.

However, the last time I looked into this matter, GNUstep still has quite a way to catch up to macOS Mojave's version of Cocoa. At the risk of going off topic, I still don't understand why GNUstep never seemed to have reached critical mass despite all these years of development. I was just a kid during the mid-1990s, but KDE and GNOME took off around this time while GNUstep kept pressing on. Here's my thoughts: maybe in 1995 and 1996 the OpenStep API might not have been attractive to developers in a world where Windows completely dominated the desktop, but this doesn't explain the decision of the KDE developers to use Qt instead of GNUstep (as well as the decision of the GNOME developers to use GTK+). There may have also been much uncertainty in 1997 following Apple's purchase of NeXT about the future of OpenStep. Such anxieties would be alleviated sometime during 2001-2003 when Mac OS X was released and started gaining popularity, but by then KDE and GNOME (and their respective underlying GUI toolkits) were firmly established in the Linux desktop ecosystem, and to this day they remain the dominant Linux desktops, and many less popular desktops still rely on Qt or GTK.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#18

Post by saagarjha »

viraptor wrote: post #16
macdice wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or use one of the CI providers that will test your stuff on macOS (alongside Windows, FreeBSD, ...). Possibly for free, if your stuff is open source. I use that for Windows, which I don't personally use at all, and it finds bugs and problems all the time. I wish someone would provide free (!) CI for some rarer OSes and CPU architectures too, but I can dream.

You can't fully test things this way. Not enough to make a serious release anyway. You can easily pass all tests while not being able to even start the app. You need at least one person with the real hardware to do testing.

This really depends on the tests you're running.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#19

Post by faissaloo »

macdice wrote: post #14
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, let's say that for whatever reason, I don't have and can't afford a Mac. Rely on some developer(s) spend 10,000 hours of their time for free developing a Mac emulation layer, or go on eBay and buy a $600 used Mac to test on...

Or use one of the CI providers that will test your stuff on macOS (alongside Windows, FreeBSD, ...). Possibly for free, if your stuff is open source. I use that for Windows, which I don't personally use at all, and it finds bugs and problems all the time. I wish someone would provide free (!) CI for some rarer OSes and CPU architectures too, but I can dream.

Unfortunately MacOS testing is usually extremely slow due to limited numbers of machines to run tests on.

Re: Darling – macOS Translation Layer for Linux

#20

Post by saagarjha »

linguae wrote: post #17

What would be amazing is if Darling could join forces with the long-running GNUstep project in order to provide access to the Cocoa APIs. This would provide a means to run Cocoa apps on Linux, which will make Linux a more attractive operating system for prospective Mac converts and may also increase the popularity of GNUstep. Also, with many Mac users expressing anxieties about the future of the Mac given Apple's bus…

Has anyone tried building libobjc on Darling? I feel like that is probably something that they'd need to do first.

Edit: It looks like they already have Foundation working.

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