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Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

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Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#201

Post by eight_ender »

ramraj07 wrote: post #64
eight_ender wrote: post #43

I wrote code like a madman and then went into management. I like management, but I understand what the author of this article was getting at. I had an identity crisis early on doing management. I liked to tell people what to do, because I had a big map in my head of where things should go. Because of this developers sort of organically gravitated to me for guidance even before I had the official job. However, I also…

So how DO you deal with people under you writing code under you that just boils your blood? Especially if you instinctually see that their contributions are always more counterproductive than not, but everyone else (including their people manager) thinks they're alright?

Performance and quality is something you can mentor. I work my ass off to make sure my devs have a plan to get better at their craft and learn from others. If they're not doing well I tell them immediately before it grows into a shitshow.

Bad values is a slightly difference conversation. If the dev has a bad attitude, refuses to improve, lazy, etc then you can only coach that so far before it's time for termination. It sounds harsh but a good managers job isn't just filling seats. You need to make sure the people on your team force multiply each other, and that your best devs are happy enough to mentor the up and comers. Low values people spoil all of that and need to go, even if they're high performers.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#202

Post by pbourke »

dyeje wrote: post #122
cryptica wrote: post #114

I cannot relate to this article at all. It's the polar opposite of my experience. I've been desperately trying to get into a management position for years. I started programming at age 14 and am now approaching 30. I created projects using basically every major programming language, created and maintained a complex open source project which now has over 5K GitHub stars and several tens of thousands of weekly download…

In my experience, people are usually promoted into management when they demonstrate leadership. I see you talk about your technical ability a lot, but that is generally not the core competency of an engineering manager. I suggest working on those abilities. It is very much so one of those situations where doing the job will get you the title.

> In my experience, people are usually promoted into management when they demonstrate leadership.

Really? In my experience, people are often promoted into management when they demonstrate political ability.

Often the people who I consider the true leaders - engineers who everyone considers competent, good advisors, mentors and role models, etc - continue quietly being engineers.

Several times, I’ve seen organizations reward people who were adept at deflecting and spinning projects, goosing metrics and hiring quickly (despite a lack of fit/competence in their hires). The teams that they led were demoralized and rudderless, but you’d hardly know that from how they were rewarded and promoted.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#203

Post by option_greek »

austincheney wrote: post #140
badfrog wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're not a very good manager, unfortunately. One of the most important things a manager does is understand how to communicate productively with each of their reports. If you have reports whom you believe cannot "follow simple instructions", your first response should be to re-evaluate the way that you provide guidance to that person, not to decide that they're "an insubordinate ass".

Should I use crayons and coloring books? That was actually a half serious question. For what developers are paid basic literacy is a safe assumption.

Just trying to be helpful:

You come across as a know-it-all and patronizing in the above two comments alone. May be you can start by recognizing that developers are not your extra sets of arms to code stuff. You should limit your self to clearly communicating objectives and measuring them rather than guiding devs (micro-managing ?) at every step.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#204

Post by JustSomeNobody »

ptero wrote: post #161
wjossey wrote: post #22

I’ve been reviewing a lot of career path documents recently for different engineering orgs, and every one is fairly uniform in that you either progress into management, team leadership, or architecture (or some blend of the three). If not, you’ll stagnate at a pretty high level, but stagnate none the less. I’ve been noodling on this for a while, and I think maybe a fourth track at a lot of organizations should be spe…

> If not, you’ll stagnate at a pretty high level, but stagnate none the less. It may be semantics, but I think "stagnating at a pretty high level" may be a pretty good endgame for a smart engineer who does not want to go to either people or technology management. If this means significant autonomy, mentoring role and decent compensation what is wrong with stagnating at this level? This is not for everyone, bit may be…

There’s nothing, or shouldn’t be anything, wrong with it. But this industry wants to push older people out if they don’t want to manage.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#206

Post by ignoramous »

crowbahr wrote: post #160
ignoramous wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you aspire sounds close to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_team In one instance that I know, a Tiger Team of 6 delivered run away hit TV streaming product in 8 months. From conception to design to prototype to factory production to launch. Another, albeit larger scale example would be Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works

Sounds also like the Google X branch.

A different take on this approach is by Cisco: They spin off products, fund the team, and later acquire them. An instance: https://www.businessinsider.in/Why-Cisco-Has-Showered-These-...

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#207

Post by makecheck »

“Promote developers who demonstrate management skills instead of top notch development skills.”

Instead of? No, that would just make developers think that software skills aren’t valued at all.

There should be multiple equally-prestigious paths so that there is some way to publicly recognize star developers without turning them into managers.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#208

Post by mixmastamyk »

jondubois wrote: post #193
dyeje wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, people are usually promoted into management when they demonstrate leadership. I see you talk about your technical ability a lot, but that is generally not the core competency of an engineering manager. I suggest working on those abilities. It is very much so one of those situations where doing the job will get you the title.

I run and maintain a successful open source project which is used by thousands of companies and has a small team of contributors who work for free. So maybe your definition of leadership is outdated. It should be all about results. All the rest is BS IMO.

Maybe you have bad habits, maybe you aren’t in the right social circles. Maybe not interviewing at enough companies. Hard to say. But you should keep your mind open and not only point a finger outward.

Believe there are management coaches that might spot self defeating habits quickly. Books like andy grove’s and innovators dilemma, peopleware, dale carnegie etc, can help too.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#209

Post by bennybob »

ipad23 wrote: post #173
scarface74 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s called “survivorship bias”.

I'm really tired of seeing this posted whenever someone talks about their success. It breeds a loser mentality where people just assume they won't be successful, so they won't even try.

I couldn't agree more. It's a toxic mentality, it allows people to just say successful / rich people must have ripped someone off or just been really lucky. Dealing with fear of failure has turned into my biggest obstacle in life.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#210

Post by mixmastamyk »

jondubois wrote: post #194
ikeyany wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're not quite used to the political game that comes with getting ahead in the corporate world. If that is the case, do you honestly believe you would be happy in management?

Yes. If I had the power, I would put an end to these games.

Ok, the reason is coming into focus. There’s a natural arrogance that comes from being smart and in your twenties. I wasn’t the worst but suffered from it a bit myself, and remember a colleague who was almost intolerable. We’d all get a good chuckle from him once in a while.

The idea one can put an end to politics with non-tiny groups of humans is unrealistic.

Definitely move Dale Carnegie to the top of the reading list and then actually follow the advice. Growing older and wiser and more humble just takes time though. Strangely enough, skydiving also helped me accelerate the process.

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