Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#71

Post by jklm » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 8:47 AM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #64

eight_ender wrote: post #43

I wrote code like a madman and then went into management. I like management, but I understand what the author of this article was getting at. I had an identity crisis early on doing management. I liked to tell people what to do, because I had a big map in my head of where things should go. Because of this developers sort of organically gravitated to me for guidance even before I had the official job. However, I also…

So how DO you deal with people under you writing code under you that just boils your blood? Especially if you instinctually see that their contributions are always more counterproductive than not, but everyone else (including their people manager) thinks they're alright?

There are a couple ways you can look at this situation:

- There generally isn’t an ‘optimal’ solution, but there are a lot of solutions with tradeoffs.

- Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and gravitate towards different molds.

- People aren’t born perfect, but what they can do is grow. How can you help them do that?

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#72

Post by miemo » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 8:50 AM UTC

neilv wrote: post #70

wjossey wrote: post #22

I’ve been reviewing a lot of career path documents recently for different engineering orgs, and every one is fairly uniform in that you either progress into management, team leadership, or architecture (or some blend of the three). If not, you’ll stagnate at a pretty high level, but stagnate none the less. I’ve been noodling on this for a while, and I think maybe a fourth track at a lot of organizations should be spe…

I was in a group a bit like that. It was small product-focused R&D team of ~6 people, charged with figuring out an emerging disruptive industry change, and building a new product line for that. (The rest of the company was directed not to even allude to our existence, since that might interfere with sales of the current products, and we even had a stealthy group name.) Except for me, who was the token enthusiastic ki…

How did you find working in that environment compared to some other projects with clearer direction?

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#73

Post by kaetemi » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 8:53 AM UTC

indogooner wrote: post #68

Aeolun wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you seem to have some idea of what an Architect is, can you explain this to me? As far as I’m concerned they’re the people that run around flooding every meeting with words that have already been said by the developers, and by extension do not need to be said.

Yes the average ones are like that but the good ones I have seen provide a broader perspective, simplify solution, prevent the excited devs from trying out complicated solution with hyped but unsuitable technologies among other things. They save so much time and effort of an org that they are much more valuable than many managers.

So many self-proclaimed architects who do literally the opposite.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#74

Post by billions » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:00 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #58

wolco wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Mistakes need to be made over and over again. Do not try to stop this force.

Then what is the point? Are you just there to gather your paycheck? I mean, to an extend, yes. But you need to be able to excert some positive effect.

big companies do not innovate. (counter examples welcome!) unless you’re in a 1-20 person startup, your impact is -5% to +5% as a division. Essentially you’re stroking egos: yours or management’s. best to choose the latter and try your hand at changing the world in after-work projects.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#75

Post by spockz » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:05 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #56

marmaduke wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah my boss certainly sees me and my colleague as a technical problem solving API: he says “now that I have told you what the problem, it is no longer my problem, and I don’t want an update unless it’s the solution.” I think this is sort of ok at a high competence level, but fails when the people you work with are less experienced. One could say the same of an IDE I suppose..

At a low competence level, this leads to non-solutions that still have to be used because of deadlines.

I would argue that the how is up to the team and it is the boss/managers level to ensure the right competencies are present in the team. Having the boss join the team is not sustainable.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#76

Post by jupp0r » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:06 AM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #64

eight_ender wrote: post #43

I wrote code like a madman and then went into management. I like management, but I understand what the author of this article was getting at. I had an identity crisis early on doing management. I liked to tell people what to do, because I had a big map in my head of where things should go. Because of this developers sort of organically gravitated to me for guidance even before I had the official job. However, I also…

So how DO you deal with people under you writing code under you that just boils your blood? Especially if you instinctually see that their contributions are always more counterproductive than not, but everyone else (including their people manager) thinks they're alright?

Try to mentor them. If all the code you see is like that you’re in the wrong spot.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#77

Post by mads » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:08 AM UTC

wjossey wrote: post #22

I’ve been reviewing a lot of career path documents recently for different engineering orgs, and every one is fairly uniform in that you either progress into management, team leadership, or architecture (or some blend of the three). If not, you’ll stagnate at a pretty high level, but stagnate none the less. I’ve been noodling on this for a while, and I think maybe a fourth track at a lot of organizations should be spe…

I used to have the same idea about those small teams given autonomy to hack and get some clear objective done whatever it takes. I think a lot of corporate environments is really missing this option.

In my mind they were called "swat teams".

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#78

Post by billions » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:13 AM UTC

When you understand how few lines of code create the business you work for, you realize the value is in taking risks on new product lines, which, are politically discouraged by most companies. for example, google.com could fire all employees tomorrow and still dominate search $ for 10 years based on an idea from 1999.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#79

Post by jaabe » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:17 AM UTC

bartimus wrote: post #32

I'm surprised how these traditional organizational structures still exist so strongly today. It sometimes feels like the whole agile/lean revolution (with self-managed teams) never happened.

The agile revolution never happened because it’s just not how people buy things. Hell, I don’t even think it’s how we build them.

I love the analogy of a burger joint and ordering a burger with fries, because from a buyers perspective, that’s exactly how we want to buy software. We point out some items on the menu, and we expect them to be delivered together, on time and to our specified demands. The person taking our order, and making it happen is the project manager who makes the different cooks do their stuff in coordination and also the person who puts shit together on a tray.

That’s exactly how people buy software, or at least how they expect to buy it. Only software is more complicated, and developers keep failing to deliver the ordered project on time. Agile was supposed to help on this, but it hasn’t. I mean, it’s anecdotal, but I work in the public sector, we track and benchmark the hell out of these things for a bureaucracy that probably never reads the reports. Anyway, agile suppliers fail as often as non agile suppliers, and they have the added problem of wanting to sell us promises.

I mean, a true agile contract can’t specify requirements, cost and time at once, but how the hell can you ever enter a contract that doesn’t? So they typically end up mixing non-agile sales with agile development. I’d like to note, that we have actually entered into truly agile contracts. Being a digitisation unit in an organisation that largely doesn’t understand digitisation gives you a lot of freedom after all. Only agile wasn’t better, in fact it’s been a lot worse, every time.

In our decade long experience, the only thing that truly works, is when management or project management knows how to make the damn burgers. Which unfortunately means that you need to promote a few developers into unhappiness.

Re: Why Good Developers Are Promoted into Unhappiness (2007)

#80

Post by mk89 » Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 9:19 AM UTC

rurban wrote: post #9

In my previous company all the senior engineers took a few juniors under their umbrella and had very informal one-on-ones with them, just to bypass the troubles with non-technical managers. Hereby I as senior could give practical advices, eg how to deal with politics, without having to go into politics, excel and powerpoint and meeting-hell by myself. This way the good senior devs didn't had to be promoted to managem…

You kind of described a highly disfunctional company, where you as a senior sw engineer literally had the power and authority to choose who would get promoted and who wouldn't.