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Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

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Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#61

Post by BenTheElder »

TheSwordsman wrote: post #58
BenTheElder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes also had (has?) pretty major issues with these, but a community member built some tools using what APIs they do have to make the moderation aspects easier at least: https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/slack-infra E.G. Reporting: https://twitter.com/KatharineBerry/status/110594147072323584... Bulk-Deletion / banning: https://twitter.com/KatharineBerry/status/111310119103288934... They've been really helpful,…

As I understand it, to support things like timed bans your only options are undocumented APIs which can change at any point in time. So while some things are documented and possible, not everything is and that's not the level of support we need.

Right, most of the APIs used are documented, but https://slack.com/api/users.admin.setInactive is not. There are some unofficial docs: https://github.com/ErikKalkoken/slackApiDoc/blob/master/user...

Otherwise APIs used are documented: https://api.slack.com/methods/files.delete https://api.slack.com/methods/chat.delete https://api.slack.com/methods/search.files https://api.slack.com/methods/search.messages

To be clear: NOT recommending Slack. Just mentioning that we also have issues and some tooling has helped, the tools could use more docs but they're pretty simple and open source FWIW.

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#62

Post by nwmcsween »

incompatible wrote: post #24
nwmcsween wrote: post #18

Irc unauthenticated? IRC has supported auth services since what 1995? There are also plenty of web irc gateways so I don't understand the reasoning to move to something more complicated for little gain, want history? Run ii in a tmux session and tail to a file, want to post images with a fancy GUI taking a gig or so of ram use slack.

They apparently want anyone to be able to easily connect and talk to developers, except for trolls, scammers, spammers etc. I'm not really sure what kind of authentication provides that, but they seem to have something in mind.

OK easy peasy have the auth services send a captcha that has to be entered to register.

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#63

Post by progval »

kibwen wrote: post #15
superconformist wrote: post #13

Mozilla's talk: > Our mission is to ensure the Internet is a global public resource, open and accessible to all. An Internet that truly puts people first, where individuals can shape their own experience and are empowered, safe and independent. Mozilla's walk: Fuck it, spin up a Slack room.

You could levy this complaint if they actually end up picking Slack (or something similarly proprietary like Discord), but that seems quite premature. I'll miss moznet as much as anyone, but there's no denying that IRC has been left in the dust this past decade or more.

Rust is moving to Discord https://blog.rust-lang.org/2019/04/26/Mozilla-IRC-Sunset-and...

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#64

Post by josteink »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #2

I don't really understand how switching to a different system is going to do anything about levels of abuse and harassment. I'm sure it will be easier to use, at least. IRCv3 was trying to solve some of this but I haven't heard a peep in years.

> I don't really understand how switching to a different system is going to do anything about levels of abuse and harassment.

It’s just another failed attempt at trying to find a technical solution to a social problem.

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#65

Post by 0db532a0 »

stormbrew wrote: post #16
Dylan16807 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRC could enforce authentication without much effort. You could use email registration, etc. Maybe there's some black magic in other services to do better anti-bot/spam than that?

Generally speaking, systems that add registration onto irc tend to make it even harder to use than it already is. In order to make it better you basically have to make it at best act strangely with existing clients, or at worst make it completely incompatible with them.

You sound like you have absolutely no idea. You are greeted by NickServ on connecting with an unregistered nick, asking you to register with your email by sending a standard /msg. You open the email and click the link. I remember doing this for FreeNode at the age of 13. It’s fine.

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#66

Post by progval »

orev wrote: post #3

As an IRC user since the early 90s (EFnet and freenode), I can say that it really feels like it is dying. There are still a few popular channels with helpful people, but the vast majority of channels are silent with no one but afk users logged into a seemingly forgotten ‘screen’ session. And of the channels that do have real people, those people often seem to be there for no reason other than to tell people to RTFM,…

> And of the channels that do have real people, those people often seem to be there for no reason other than to tell people to RTFM,

It depends a lot on the community. I started using IRC in ~2010 as a teenager and I don't remember ever seeing someone being told to RTFM (except ironically).

> play topic nazi to such an extreme level that apparently nothing is actually on topic,

I've seen some topic nazis, but in most channels, discussions can go very far away from the topic.

> or just generally berate people for having the gall to say something in the channel.

what?

> Ops are extremely touchy and seem willing to immediately kick people rather than

On most channels I'm in (mostly tech channels, freenode/oftc/mozilla), I don't even know who the ops are.

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#67

Post by stupidthrottle »

meribold wrote: post #9

I had a question for the Firefox UX team a few months ago and went to #ux on irc.mozilla.org. The channel was completely dead. Someone that wasn't from the UX team was still there and told me they all moved to a private Slack channel.

> Someone that wasn't from the UX team was still there and told me they all moved to a private Slack channel.

So private channel and closed platform.

Excellent discoverability and excellent UX, eh?

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#68

Post by laughinghan »

josteink wrote: post #55
deanc wrote: post #37

I don't understand what moving to slack is going to give them, which is inevitably where this is going to lead (or a similar web-based chat). IRC has the same tools for banning users as Slack, if not more powerful as you can ban ranges etc. You can require people to register with an email in the same way slack does, although I'd argue being anonymous and being able to talk without an account is one of IRC's best feat…

> You can require people to register with an email in the same way slack does, although I'd argue being anonymous and being able to talk without an account is one of IRC's best features. As someone from the “old” and free internet I agree, but there seems to be a new generation of users who seem to have the ability to perform censorship as a core requirement (although they prefer to call it “governance”). It’s sad to…

How would you have them deal with harassment and spam, or do you not believe it is as much of a problem for them as they claim it is?

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#69

Post by joepie91_ »

ve55 wrote: post #6
Dylan16807 wrote: post #2

I don't really understand how switching to a different system is going to do anything about levels of abuse and harassment. I'm sure it will be easier to use, at least. IRCv3 was trying to solve some of this but I haven't heard a peep in years.

Spam can be difficult to stop on IRC compared to modern webchat applications. From lacking things like javascript, captchas, cdns, and so on, to having a distributed network architecture and fewer ways to verify users.

> having a distributed network architecture and fewer ways to verify users

You have exactly as many ways to verify users as are implemented in your NickServ, and pretty much every snazzy web-y proprietary chat platform has a "distributed network architecture" as well.

IRC has plenty of real problems, but your particular list of arguments seems completely irrelevant.

Re: Mozilla is giving up on their IRC server

#70

Post by bayareanative »

The danger of giving up on IRC and going with a hosted corporate product is the chilling effects on free speech by being at the whims and mercurial mercy of corporate interests. They ought to stay with a self-hosted product that cannot be shutdown by whichever government or corporation decides to ban or restrict speech, thereby ceding what should've been public commons to being under the thumb of a particular government or corporation, and what they deem acceptable, not the community/community leaders deciding. I suggest hosting it somewhere like Iceland.
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