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Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

nautil.us

171–180 of 195 posts

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to entropy decreasing as you travel, say, toward the galactic north? It's a good question. One answer could be the mostly spatially uniform initial conditions of the big bang. Also, a spatial entropy gradient would gradually diffuse over time to become uniform again. But in general, the arrow of time is a consequence of systems that store a memory of their pasts, which is possible because the past is lower…

Isn’t a black hole a spatial entropy gradient?

That's a pretty difficult case to reason about. But setting aside the time warping effects, I think a black hole's entropy would be too high to support any kind of memory-bearing structure in its vicinity.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to entropy decreasing as you travel, say, toward the galactic north? It's a good question. One answer could be the mostly spatially uniform initial conditions of the big bang. Also, a spatial entropy gradient would gradually diffuse over time to become uniform again. But in general, the arrow of time is a consequence of systems that store a memory of their pasts, which is possible because the past is lower…

Thanks for the answer. I mean exactly that! Thoughts on your thoughts: > One answer could be the mostly spatially uniform initial conditions of the big bang. That's fair, but in that case, to continue the galactic north analogy, is there a reason why the Big Bang couldn't have happened uniformly in the dimension-3 hyperplane of (time, plane of the milky way) instead of the space hyperplane? > a spatial entropy gradie…

> is there a reason why the Big Bang couldn't have happened uniformly in the dimension-3 hyperplane

It's a really good question. I think it has to do with how space expanded after the big bang (which is to me still a mysterious subject).

To avoid confusion, let me call "time" the arrow of time as perceived from within a system, and "TIME" the coordinate axis of spacetime that has the opposite sign from the other three.

The early days of the universe were full of heat and radiation everywhere throughout space, which seems like a high entropy scenario for sure. But entropy was able to increase as the universe cooled because space itself expanded adiabatically (and so the configuration space became larger).

In other words, we end up with an entropy gradient that points along the TIME axis because the volume of space expands along that axis. Like space-time is shaped like a pyramid rather than a cube, with the pointy axis in the TIME direction.

I don't know enough general relativity to say for sure, but I expect that that pyramid shape (expanding towards later times) is probably a consequence of TIME behaving differently than other spatial dimensions. If spacetime shrank volumetrically toward the galactic north, in a fairly uniform way throughout all times and throughout the universe, then we'd have a different conclusion. (This might seem like the case near a black hole).

I guess another thing to remember is that TIME and space really are different things. For example, conservation of angular momentum means the universe has constant angular momentum at all times, but not necessarily in all directions of space.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's because it is effectively a computer. Not in the vague sense of "it has stuffs connected to stuffs and there's electricity involved", but in the more specific sense that it takes inputs, produces complex outputs, has clearly identifiable hardware and indirectly identifiable software. It even has internal structure we're only beginning to understand, but that we know enough about to reasonably infer what comput…

> A car's horsepower is not in its carburetor, or its gas, or its manifold, because the horsepower of a car is what it can do, its an ability, a power. In the same sense the brain can compute, but that doesn't mean it is a computer. A car's horsepower is in the engine. That's what an engine does. Burns fuel, provides work over time. Work over time is denominated in horsepower - or, in saner company, in watts. Categor…

Sorry, I didn't see that you'd replied to my comment until today.

> A car's horsepower is in the engine.

Where is it in the engine? The engine can go 180hp. But the engine does not contain 180 hp. That's what the concept of an ability or a power is. A broken engine cannot go 180 hp. But, if as you say, it is in the engine, then that distinction would be irrelevant. We would still say a broken engine can go 180 hp. But we don't.

> Similarly, if brain can compute, it is a computer. It's also an organ.

Right, you'll see I have never said the brain can't compute. But that doesn't mean it is simply a computer. If the assumption that the brain is a computer is to stand then the abilities of a computer should be compared to the abilities of a brain, or a person. There are those that match. We agree on that. But there are those that do not. And that means the assumption that the brain simply is a computer is flawed. It is an organ that can compute. But to extend from that that it is a computer is eliding the crucial difference between the two. That is your assumption.

> Evidence needed. Why would it [imagination] not be computational?

Let's ignore that the premise you are making: that imagination is computational, requires you to support it as well;

> imagination-like computations

> A fuzzy search on a graph

> A series of simulations with relaxed constraints and somewhat randomized initial states

All require you to posit things that are -like, or somewhat like imagination. But computers are programmed. They can't think new thoughts. They are closed deterministic systems. That their output seems imaginative or novel does not mean the computer has the ability to imagine, it means the computational output was unexpected to you or the people who wrote the code. The idea that imagination is computational is a category error.

> not a big leap to conclude that imagination is nothing but a more complex variant of such computations

This is actually an enormous leap. Can computers imagine? You will find zero agreement in that regard. That doesn't prove your point. You'll need to provide evidence that computers can actually violate their programming, cannot just compute and instead imagine. But that's not what computers do. Computers compute. That they can do things that seem like imagination to you does not mean they can imagine.

>> It means you can fuzzily model the brain on a computer, but that model will have glaring gaps.

> Models exist on a map, not in the territory. So do brains and computers. The territory is made of whatever sub-quark substrate the reality is made of. When you say "brain", what you're really referring to is a model, and a pretty black-boxy one. Viewing the brain as a computer is an attempt to apply a model that's little more transparent (and therefore more useful); as long as it matches observable evidence (and it does), it's the right thing to do.

Excuse my original words, I meant "fuzzily model the brain as a computer

Again, I don't think applying the computer as a model is completely invalid. But it has limitations. You can't just brush off those limitations when you talk about the brain as a computer. They fundamentally mean the comparison is less useful. Supposing it is 1 to 1, which you are doing leads you to build on assumptions that are unsupported. You have to accept that the assumption that the brain is a computer has serious criticisms brought against it. And you have to defend that assumption. You can't simply ignore them and argue that you are right.

For instance viewing the brain as computer frequently does not match the observable evidence. We can imagine. Computers cannot. That is observable. So how do you support the assumption that the brain is a computer in spite of that?

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#174
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see no way in which this gap can be bridged in terms of what we currently know about the physical universe. That "you see no way" doesn't confirm more than that. It's about your own thinking: http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html http://skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html

I don't see how this is relevant? I don't have a strong need to believe there is more in the universe than matter. In fact, as mentioned earlier I believed for a long time everything could be explained in that way. But after further reflection I have arrived at a different conclusion. Throwing out allegations of wishful thinking in a debate should at least be substantiated. Otherwise I can equally validly say it's wi…

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I claim that the processes of “thinking“ and “being conscious“ can be simulated on the reasonably powerful computer. Your claim that there’s something “more” were supported by you claiming “you seeing no way” for “more” not existing.

Now if you would claim there’s a teapot orbiting Neptune I would also not be able to disprove your claim. But based on what I know about the world, I wouldn’t expect a teapot being there. So from my perspective if you claim that it’s there, you must be in the “Subjective validation” state: “validating words, initials, statements, or signs as accurate because one is able to find them personally meaningful and significant.”

So my guess is that it deeply matters to you to believe that you are fundamentally different from all other animals. Which is a wishful thinking.

Specifically, humans as spices indeed developed the capability to talk about things, for which a kind of symbolic manipulation and processing is needed. Once the capability exists, inventing the names for the abstract concepts is also just a simple process. The names like “soul” etc.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#175
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this is relevant? I don't have a strong need to believe there is more in the universe than matter. In fact, as mentioned earlier I believed for a long time everything could be explained in that way. But after further reflection I have arrived at a different conclusion. Throwing out allegations of wishful thinking in a debate should at least be substantiated. Otherwise I can equally validly say it's wi…

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I claim that the processes of “thinking“ and “being conscious“ can be simulated on the reasonably powerful computer. Your claim that there’s something “more” were supported by you claiming “you seeing no way” for “more” not existing. Now if you would claim there’s a teapot orbiting Neptune I would also not be able to disprove your claim. But based on what I know about…

>So my guess is that it deeply matters to you to believe that you are fundamentally different from all other animals. Which is a wishful thinking.

:) I urge you to read through this quote and then ask yourself who is making more assumptions and who are partaking in wishful thinking. I have already stated that I really don't have a problem with us being matter 'only' and yet you find this statement somehow so incredible that you have to claim that this 'deeply matters' to me, despite what I actually claim is the reason for my belief.

To me, the extraordinary claim is that matter arranged in a certain way can give rise to subjective experience. That is what requires extraordinary evidence, in the same way I would need evidence if you said that by putting sticks together to form a pentagram you were able to summon a demon.

Your teapot around neptune is neither here nor there as an argument, but since I have encountered it before I am guessing it's taken from some kind of 'sceptic's manual for discussion'. It has little relevance here, however, as I am not claiming something completely taken out of the blue, but rather something that is based on direct experience with the world, i. e. my own subjective experience.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. I would certainly say consciousness is 'something more', and that this something more has to be something non-material (or at least using 'materials' that have wildly different properties than what we observe using the scientific method). Theseus' ship is a problem for a purely materialistic explanation of consciousness, for, by that account, consciousness should be a fun…

> I would certainly say consciousness is 'something more', and that this something more has to be something non-material (or at least using 'materials' that have wildly different properties than what we observe using the scientific method). If you're interested in having that idea challenged, I heartily recommend reading "Godel, Escher, Bach" - the book explains how complexity (perhaps to the point of consciousness)…

I certainly am interested in this, but I also would like to note that this is not just a matter of something 'more complex' arising and that I lack the imagination necessary to see how something very very complex can arise. Rather, subjective experience is a phenomenon that, no matter how complex your system is, is qualitatively different.

It's not like this is a trivial problem that philosophers of mind have figured out long ago. As someone else mentioned in this thread, it is a very deep problem. If you want to have your view challenged I encourage you to read any introductory book to philosophy of mind.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#177
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. I would certainly say consciousness is 'something more', and that this something more has to be something non-material (or at least using 'materials' that have wildly different properties than what we observe using the scientific method). Theseus' ship is a problem for a purely materialistic explanation of consciousness, for, by that account, consciousness should be a fun…

Theseus' ship is not a problem for materialistic explanations of anything; it's a problem for anybody who thinks the nature of a thing is governed by the words used to describe it. The fact that you would continue to call a ship the same after exchanging all its parts is not an ontological problem, it is a problem arising from the imprecise use of language or intention to use an approximate/aggregate notion of identi…

And yet, consciousness is something that remains, regardless of whether we name it as such, and regardless of the specific cells that make up our brains. So it's as if it is the only thing that is not named 'by us' and yet remains 'something' independent of its makeup.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#178
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No amount of programming can produce imagination" is a very bold statement to make. The brain exists in a physical universe, made out of matter/energy, and its behaviours are entirely dictated by the laws of physics; that's a fairly accepted truth unless you have solid evidence otherwise. The laws of physics are mathematical and can be computed by their very nature, and we are already pretty good at simulating physi…

It's not a remotely bold statement. Think about what imagination is, and then think about whether computers can imagine. Computers can't imagine. Computers can't come up with new things because they are programmed. Programming prescribes the outputs to the same limitations as the inputs: it's a closed deterministic system. You'll see in my comment above this one that I agree that the brain is a physical thing. But ab…

gurr hurr durr murr burr

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would certainly say consciousness is 'something more', and that this something more has to be something non-material (or at least using 'materials' that have wildly different properties than what we observe using the scientific method). If you're interested in having that idea challenged, I heartily recommend reading "Godel, Escher, Bach" - the book explains how complexity (perhaps to the point of consciousness)…

I certainly am interested in this, but I also would like to note that this is not just a matter of something 'more complex' arising and that I lack the imagination necessary to see how something very very complex can arise. Rather, subjective experience is a phenomenon that, no matter how complex your system is, is qualitatively different. It's not like this is a trivial problem that philosophers of mind have figured…

I always like having my views challenged :) can you recommend any particular text or would the top hit on amazon be sufficient?

Also, in terms of GEB, the book shows how self-reference leads to a system being able to make statemets about itself, leading to, eventually, something more than (apparently) the sum of their parts. It’s a funky mix of philosophy and math and I think you’d like it.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#180
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I claim that the processes of “thinking“ and “being conscious“ can be simulated on the reasonably powerful computer. Your claim that there’s something “more” were supported by you claiming “you seeing no way” for “more” not existing. Now if you would claim there’s a teapot orbiting Neptune I would also not be able to disprove your claim. But based on what I know about…

>So my guess is that it deeply matters to you to believe that you are fundamentally different from all other animals. Which is a wishful thinking. :) I urge you to read through this quote and then ask yourself who is making more assumptions and who are partaking in wishful thinking. I have already stated that I really don't have a problem with us being matter 'only' and yet you find this statement somehow so incredib…

So it's your "experience" is that you are simply "special" (based on a wishful thinking) or is there anything else? I don't think so, as you yourself write it's just your own belief: "mostly a negative position in the sense that I don't believe matter, as described by the laws of physics, can give a coherent explanation of the phenomenon of consciousness."

My belief is that you even don't want to understand it.

There are no "laws of physics" that have to be changed to make a computer that is as complex as a person's brain: it's just that our technology is inefficient: one human's brain has some 100 billion neurons, we have had a significant effort to simulate around 100 million times less:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWorm

The organic cells are simply extremely efficient in the tasks they are doing, compared to our technology.

But even that small order of magnitude of cells are enough to evolve a basic "self awareness": it's simply an evolutionary advantage for multicellular life forms not to treat their own parts of the body the same as the competition and the rest of the environment. Basically a need to treat distinctively "myself" "food" "a potential sex partner" and an "enemy" is built in in the complex life forms that move (i.e. all kinds of animals).

That "special feeling" of you "being special" that you are aware of is something that you share with most of the complex life, and it is not a surprise in any way.

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