Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 120 posts

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#91

Post by moftz »

gvurrdon wrote: post #67
moftz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My head just barely remains upright whenever I don't use the reclining function. I always feel bad invading the space of the person behind me, especially when it's a tall person who is already at the limit for room. Although I'll lean back all day long when it's a child behind me.

Being such a tall person, your concern is appreciated. In economy class my knees touch the back of the seat in front even before it reclines.

I'm tall as well so it's more of just a courtesy that if I don't recline, the person behind me will pay it forward and not recline unless needed. On a red eye, it's always appropriate to recline though.

Honestly, I just want to be knocked unconscious, stacked up and strapped down like firewood with others, and then woken up upon arrival. Flights would get so cheap and there wouldn't be any need for any amenities. I think I just hate the fake comfort that airlines try to give us. I'm never really going to enjoy sitting in a little seat inside a metal tube so just cut it with the forced nostalgia of the golden age of air travel and just get me to where I need to be a quickly and cheaply as possible. I'm flying overnight to Europe soon. The plan is to just take a couple anti-histamines and so I don't have to experience any of the flight.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#92

Post by cimmanom »

mikybee93 wrote: post #83
rootusrootus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that's exactly what's been happening over the years. It might be so abrupt in this case that it would fail just because the marketing would be too easy. But airlines have been incrementally decreasing seat pitch for a long time and then charging a significant amount for what used to be normal.

No it hasn't. Airline prices have trended downwards over time.

Prices for “economy” and “business class” have been trending downwards, yes. But what you now get in “business class” is what you used to get in “economy” 20-30 years ago and “business class” now is not less expensive than “economy” was 20-30 years ago.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#93

Post by hourislate »

CompelTechnic wrote: post #3

For short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats." Airline margins will remain razor thin and the savings will be passed to the subset of customers who choose to be more cramped. There WILL continue to be "premium economy" or similar for those who choose it, that is undoubtable. If the price sensitivity tradeoff of customers ultimately dictates that these standing seats do not gain adoption, I woul…

>For short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats."

There are always those customers who would be willing to sit in the luggage hold or lay in the overhead bin or hang onto the wing to save $10.

But these new seating choices remind me of my train travel through Poland in the late 70's on my way to the USSR. I bought a first class ticket to Ukraine from Warsaw and when it pulled into the station there were people climbing through windows while folks used the doors to exit. By the time I got to my 1st class cabin there were about 15 people in there (seating for 6 comfortably). I had to stand in the aisle for about 8 hours overnight hanging on. Good Times...Good Times....LOL...

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#94

Post by ken »

mlrtime wrote: post #16
PaulHoule wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that "customers want cheap flights more than they want comfort". Really customers have about as much choice in the comfort of a flight as they do in the cost of health care services. For years it has been "pay 4 times as much as economy or suffer", in the last ten years they've introduced "basic economy" which at least is realistic. I might rather fly in a widebody on a domestic flight but I don't get…

People vote with their dollars, many legs have multiple options and multiple seat options. Almost everyone goes with the cheapest option. I've flow from NYC to Chicago $90 round trip. It's incredible how inexpensive flying as become.

Tell me by what means I can "vote with my dollars". Is there a travel site where I can sort flights by seat pitch?

I see options to sort by price, by airline, by number of minutes in the air, or by number of transfers, but I've never seen the option to sort by seat pitch. Half the time, it's nearly impossible to even figure out what kind of aircraft it will be.

I choose by price because it's the most relevant of the limited and mostly useless options that we're given.

Personal space is a competitive advantage. Hotels get this. The website for the nearest hotel to me has a top-level "ROOMS" page, with photographs and square footage of every room. I will pay a little more because I know what I'm getting. With air travel, I have no way of knowing which flight will pack me in like a sardine, so I might as well save the money and spend it on a hot meal at the end to recover.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#95

Post by tyingq »

gomox wrote: post #12
tyingq wrote: post #8

The bicycle like standing seat does look awful. Reclining, though, is a silly feature on coach airline seats. At best, you temporarily get more room at the expense of the person behind you. Until the person in front of you reclines. Reclining seats when the seat pitch is so tight is just dumb. Oh, and if you get the paywall: http://archive.is/vqTNf

If you ever do a long haul flight in economy (which I assume you haven't) you will realize the obvious purpose of reclining coach seats: to allow people a fighting chance of remaining asleep instead of being constantly awakened by their falling heads.

Actually I do a lot of flying. the fact that the upright position isn't designed well doesn't really negate my point. A well-designed non reclining seat would work better with tight pitches.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#96

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

overthemoon wrote: post #66
lenticular wrote: post #32

Airlines are having near-record profits now. I have a hard time believing there isn't some implicit or explicit collusion going on with US carriers. Not only are seats ever-more cramped and the fees ever greater, but pilot benefits have been massively slashed at many airlines as well. The series of mergers we have had have made things worse, I think.

This is my suspicion, as well. I don't buy the complaints about thin margins driving these decisions. The main innovation of airlines appears to be exactly how much misery people will put up with and still buy a ticket.

Razor thin margins and R&D expense is how folks handwave away being gouged by price or having service that would be deemed illegal for cattle.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#97

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

moftz wrote: post #20

I would want to try sitting in one sometime. Airlines might have a better time trying to push the idea if they can get mockups built that can be installed in terminals at major airlines. If it's actually not that bad, let people test it out. It looks terrible but so is sitting in a cramped airline chair with your knees jammed into the seatback. If the vertical seat at least gave the illusion of more room in the sense…

You are talking about the "hidden comfort" of such a system. Ask yourself this, where else do you see such a configuration where there isn't a profit motive? Do people eat dinner in such a configuration? Do their living rooms have vertical seats? What about movie theaters, stadiums and classrooms?

Of course you don't.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#98

Post by kareemm »

mikybee93 wrote: post #33
kareemm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like an optimist. My take is that airlines are adding a worse option for the price they currently charge, which lets them charge more for the current options.

But in order for that to work, every single airline would have to do that together, holding hands. Because there are multiple airlines, a single airline could choose not to install them and keep their current prices for seats and outcompete those who do install these. I mean, that's basic economics of competition.

> I mean, that's basic economics of competition.

Yes, in a free market. Airlines are expensive and heavily regulated. And regulators are subject to capture (ref: FAA and 737-MAX problems). Which means there are major barriers to building a new airline.

I suspect it's actually much more profitable for airlines to follow the profit-seeking lead of a competitor. E.g. if Delta rolled out the standing seats for their current price, I suspect we'd see United and American follow. You don't have to look too far to see that's been the case with other "conveniences" like bag check fees, bag weight limits, seat selection fees, food for sale instead of being included in the price, etc.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#99

Post by ghaff »

cimmanom wrote: post #92
mikybee93 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it hasn't. Airline prices have trended downwards over time.

Prices for “economy” and “business class” have been trending downwards, yes. But what you now get in “business class” is what you used to get in “economy” 20-30 years ago and “business class” now is not less expensive than “economy” was 20-30 years ago.

>But what you now get in “business class” is what you used to get in “economy” 20-30 years ago

That's nonsense. Especially in long haul flights, business class is in fact more comfortable and has more amenities than it did 20-30 years ago with lie-flat seating, on demand entertainment, etc. Traditional domestic business class is about the same as it ever was while economy has mostly seen a decrease in seat pitch. (Economy Plus--which differs by airline--is more like what regular economy used to be.)

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#100

Post by rootusrootus »

derekp7 wrote: post #82
rootusrootus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WRT reclining, I disagree. The seats need to be upright enough so that emergency egress is easy, but that runs contrary to what is comfortable for many people. I don't need much recline, but allowing the seat to move back an inch or two (as measured at the top) makes a huge difference in posture.

I'd like to see reclining seats keep the top stationary, but move the bottom forward. That way when you recline you are only taking away your own space.

That would probably require a larger seat pitch. No argument from me.
Post reply on HN