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Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

latimes.com

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Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#61

Post by kamarg »

slater wrote: post #21

So is there, then, a market for an airline that offers substantially more legroom and larger seats (biz-class-size for the entire plane?) for a slight increase in price? Aforementioned Delta Airlines had $1.3bn in PROFITS last year, so not sure about razor-thin margins.

I don't believe they have actually flown a single flight yet but supposedly https://www.zedaerospace.com/ will be flying it's first routes sometime this year. They're claiming first class seating for all passengers on all flights. Prices look not unreasonably low if they actually deliver what they're claiming but they're also selling $100/month subscriptions that get you cheaper flights and...I'm not sure what else.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#62

Post by rootusrootus »

mikybee93 wrote: post #58
rootusrootus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that what will actually happen is this new option will become default, and the old cattle class will now be an upgrade, and it won't cost what it does now, it will be 2x as much. There must be some MBA that figured out that someone who will pay a little extra for comfort will probably pay 2-3x as much if you push.

That isn't what has happened historically, in this market or in others. I don't know why so many people seem to expect this to happen now. If Delta decides to implement these seats and then charge 2x as much for the current seats, United will choose not to and nobody will fly Delta unless they absolutely have to. Competition keeps this sort of thing from happening.

Except that's exactly what's been happening over the years. It might be so abrupt in this case that it would fail just because the marketing would be too easy. But airlines have been incrementally decreasing seat pitch for a long time and then charging a significant amount for what used to be normal.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#63

Post by PaulHoule »

mikybee93 wrote: post #51
brotoss wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delta's NET income for 2018 was $3.95 billion dollars

Apparently they have over 180 million passengers a year[0]. That means that, at most, they're making $7 per passenger. It's not like they're gouging their customers. [0] https://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts

It doesn't mean that aren't stuck in vicious circles.

For instance, Boeing has dumped 737 MAX planes (and duped regulators, endangered passengers, ...) to fight off advanced competitors such as the A220 and Gen2 E195.

Smaller less-capitalized companies have done the right thing and embraced innovation, somehow Boeing decided that international widebody passengers deserve better planes but that narrowbody passengers should suffer and that neoliberals will parrot that "there is no alternative".

Modern airliners can be smaller than the 737 bit have much better passenger comfort and lower seat-mile costs. Boeing has to let up on the anti-competitive behavior for that to happen.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#64

Post by mikybee93 »

xienze wrote: post #48
mikybee93 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And assuming they don’t just move in lock-step with their other competitors and make these new seats the default Well then they wouldn't be competitors, would they? That's another problem. Any single airline could disrupt the system by choosing not to install these and to keep their prices the same. Or choosing to install these and lower their prices. Which are two good things for consumers. Like I replied above, th…

Show me the airline today that has superior seats to all the others that charges the same amount. It’s not a coincidence that seating has gotten crappier across the board.

And it's also not a coincidence that flights have gotten cheaper across the board.

Airlines have, as a whole, found that it's more profitable to sell cheaper crappy seats than it is to sell more expensive nice seats, because nobody will buy the nice seats given the option.

If someone had superior seats, why would they charge the same amount?

What I'm trying to say is that if someone comes out with a crappier seat, they will have to charge less than a normal seat. If they choose not to, they won't be able to get people into those standing seats.

When a company comes out with a crappier car, do they charge the same amount as a standard car? Does the price of that standard car rise, now that there's a crappy car at its price point?

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#65

Post by corodra »

draugadrotten wrote: post #5

Rubbish. This type of "news" is cheap brand name advertising by low cost airlines. The 5-pound toilet from European Ryanair was a similar campaign. Though news coverage may appear negative, it is aligned with the impression of the brand as "low cost" and therefore strengthens the brand.

That’s interesting. I never thought about that. Any idea on the effectiveness of doing this? It just seems dicey to me with quite a lot of risk with minimal benefit. I’d rather pet a rabid raccoon than be the PR manager that pulls this stunt. But I do see your point and if done well... yea, just say you found better ways of being lower cost and everyone forgets this ever happened.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#66

Post by overthemoon »

lenticular wrote: post #32

Airlines are having near-record profits now. I have a hard time believing there isn't some implicit or explicit collusion going on with US carriers. Not only are seats ever-more cramped and the fees ever greater, but pilot benefits have been massively slashed at many airlines as well. The series of mergers we have had have made things worse, I think.

This is my suspicion, as well. I don't buy the complaints about thin margins driving these decisions. The main innovation of airlines appears to be exactly how much misery people will put up with and still buy a ticket.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#67

Post by gvurrdon »

moftz wrote: post #26
gomox wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever do a long haul flight in economy (which I assume you haven't) you will realize the obvious purpose of reclining coach seats: to allow people a fighting chance of remaining asleep instead of being constantly awakened by their falling heads.

My head just barely remains upright whenever I don't use the reclining function. I always feel bad invading the space of the person behind me, especially when it's a tall person who is already at the limit for room. Although I'll lean back all day long when it's a child behind me.

Being such a tall person, your concern is appreciated. In economy class my knees touch the back of the seat in front even before it reclines.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#68

Post by TheCondor »

CompelTechnic wrote: post #3

For short flights, I do not mind the development of "standing seats." Airline margins will remain razor thin and the savings will be passed to the subset of customers who choose to be more cramped. There WILL continue to be "premium economy" or similar for those who choose it, that is undoubtable. If the price sensitivity tradeoff of customers ultimately dictates that these standing seats do not gain adoption, I woul…

We need hyperloop to work and national high speed rail to offer alternatives and competition. I do a 2 hour flight, about 1000 miles for work once or twice a quarter, I’d seriously consider a 4-6 hour train ride if the experience was better. Rather than paying extra to carry my bag on, I wouldn’t mind paying extra for a proper meal and some comfortable work space. And if they streamlined the security process the time difference would be that much smaller.

Re: Airlines eye crueler ways of making passengers miserable

#69

Post by lizknope »

People want cheap flights. Some people want more comfortable flights and are willing to pay.

I fly about 3 times a year domestically in the United States and Delta, American, and United all have a "Comfort or Economy Plus" section with extra legroom. It costs between $50-200 per flight extra but also includes boarding right after first class before everyone else.

For me it is totally worth it. I don't need first class treatment but at my height the extra legroom is absolutely worth the price.

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