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Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

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Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#201

Post by andredz »

thanatropism wrote: post #165
misterman0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear, hear! For the love of Jesus Christ, the bullshitting in our industry must stop! This is my main gripe with our industry and the reason I've been contemplating getting the fuck out of Dodge on, holy shit, so, so many occasions. I've been in it for 25 years+. But, people who are full of shit need to shut the fuckz up. It takes a significant amount of civil courage to take tone in a meeting full of bosses. But if…

ESL here. What is "take tone"?

ESL as well. I think it might have to do with tuning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tuning) which is usually done before a concert. So it'd be: ready yourself to make a scene.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#202

Post by [deleted] »

kgran wrote: post #53
shanselman wrote: post #11

I'm 17 pages in and I am wondering if the paper itself is bullshit and that's the joke.

Your comment was published 20 minutes after the submission. If you were 17 pages at that point, it makes me wonder if you were just pointing out that you found the paper somewhat insulting.

[deleted]

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#203

Post by maxxxxx »

wsdfsayy wrote: post #4

Literally everywhere? I don't think I've worked in a work environment to date where at least half of anyone in a management position was not a complete BSer. It honestly made me wonder if that's what it takes to move up.

I have been thinking about that too. I go to work to do interesting technical stuff and deal with political stuff only as necessary. That's what motivates me. But I think it would be much better to go there for the purpose of self-advancement and only do stuff that serves that purpose.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#204

Post by minikites »

pintxo wrote: post #179
minikites wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's also a big power dynamic at play where underlings don't want to question a senior professor because obviously the professor knows what they're doing. This exists much more directly in business. Questioning your boss can lead to you getting fired by that boss. A senior professor can't fire an adjunct. A dean can't arbitrarily fire a professor with tenure.

Do you believe a Phd student should risk questioning his supervisor? Which could likely end a planned career in science right there?

That's a better point, but the student still couldn't be expelled, which is the workplace equivalent.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#205

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Terr_ wrote: post #200
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I agree with that. When you ask a question, you may be speaking for most of the room. It's just that you're the only one bold enough to say it. And if you are speaking for most of the room, you won't take a social hit for the question. Quite the opposite. (Of course, it can be that you just weren't paying attention. For questions that come out of that situation, you may in fact take a social hit, and perhaps…

> most of the room Careful, there's an important distinction between "the majority of participants" and "those who have the most power and the most to lose." In fact, that reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote which I think is particularly appropriate to this subject: ___ > Supposing an emperor was persuaded to wear a new suit of clothes whose material was so fine that, to the common eye, the clothes weren't there. A…

Sure. But that's a political price rather than a social one. (You'd better be prepared to pay it, though.)

I have, in my career, "spoken for the room" maybe three to five times. In two of them, I was already on my way out the door, so I wasn't very worried about the consequences. In no case was I ostracized or belittled by the non-management in the room. I received a few, very quiet, thanks.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#206

Post by throwaway743 »

maze-le wrote: post #183
misterman0 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> push and promote “fake it till you make it” Causality then render a situation where bullshitters have now gotten so good at faking it that buyers of tech are simply herrings among hungry dolphins. Bullshitters in our industry have united and made it impossible for buyers (herrings) to see any other choice but to become swallowed as a meal. So they try their best to choose the very best dolphin to be swallowed by.…

>> Solution: >> - stand the F up on every meeting where you hear BS, and call "shenanigans"!. Great way to get yourself sidelined in the near future, and not being able to intervene when it will be your job to implement a fantasy... The problem with being honest in a situation like this is, that it will disrupt everyone in that meeting, not just the bullshitter. You'll be perceived as a fire starter and the next meet…

>The problem with being honest in a situation like this is, that it will disrupt everyone in that meeting, not just the bullshitter. You'll be perceived as a fire starter and the next meeting will likely take place without you -- organizations at a certain size can be very flexible this way. Or worse: They retaliate. Bullshitters are usually good at manipulating peoples perceptions. Once they feel threatened, they are likely to respond (in a way, you'll probably lose, since they can dictate the turf and the weapons).

I can relate to this to a 'T'. The worst is when they are sociopaths on top of everything else

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#207

Post by dominotw »

kuzehanka wrote: post #7

The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness. Our industry is one where the impostor complex is rife and anyone who sounds confident must know what they're talking about, since even the PhD's aren't half as confident in their field of expertise as a bullshitter is at anything. The tech industry is increasingly inundated with these types of people who manage to get placed…

> but something needs to be done about these types of people

I've been thinking a lot about this. Why doesn't capitalism take care of this. what is the fundamental flaw in capitalism that allows this.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#208

Post by thestoicattack »

thanatropism wrote: post #165
misterman0 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear, hear! For the love of Jesus Christ, the bullshitting in our industry must stop! This is my main gripe with our industry and the reason I've been contemplating getting the fuck out of Dodge on, holy shit, so, so many occasions. I've been in it for 25 years+. But, people who are full of shit need to shut the fuckz up. It takes a significant amount of civil courage to take tone in a meeting full of bosses. But if…

ESL here. What is "take tone"?

To take a certain tone with someone means to speak in a certain way -- as in, use a particular tone of voice.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#209

Post by clairity »

gooseus wrote: post #126
kuzehanka wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always interpreted 'fake it till you make it' as 'promise what you could do with sufficient resources'. That is fundamentally different from people who just make up random shit that sounds good to whoever has money, without any idea or plans to materialise it or whether it's even possible. You do raise a good point with Uber/theranos/dao.

I'm sure that's what every person who deploys that phrase tells themselves (and everyone else) that this is what they means. The problem is that when "making it" is a huge long-shot (most tech ideas) and "faking it" is really easy (most tech ideas) then you end up with a whole lot of fakes that never make and a bunch of people who either need to come to grips with the fact that they are basically frauds or who will s…

it's very socially and economically costly to keep other people accountable, so most people lack the fortitude to do so.

this is why we have so many hero myths/stories, to valorize those few people brave enough to pay those costs for the rest of us. that esteem bestowed is one of the few ways we can repay the costs (if only incompletely) that "heroes" incur for us.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#210

Post by xiaolingxiao »

kodz4 wrote: post #198
kuzehanka wrote: post #7

The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness. Our industry is one where the impostor complex is rife and anyone who sounds confident must know what they're talking about, since even the PhD's aren't half as confident in their field of expertise as a bullshitter is at anything. The tech industry is increasingly inundated with these types of people who manage to get placed…

The problem is not the bullshitters. They are usually a sign of deeper problems that no one more competent wants to deal with. Does Bill Gates want to be President? Nope. What a hassle, too busy, other interests etc etc etc. The higher up you climb no issue is black and white. And the more ambiguous things get in terms of cost to self and everyone else, the less the number of people willing to stick their neck out. T…

"Thats when you locate a master bullshitter and invite him into the room with all the best and the brightest present and hand him all power. It shakes everyone up. And sooner or later someone will step up"

Could you explain the social reason for why this is? Is it because everyone else think they're better off sharing on the upside created by the Bullshitter, while not being as exposed to the downside? Do they think they can control the BS artist instead of the other way around?

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