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Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

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Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#131

Post by PeterStuer »

devonkim wrote: post #46
will_brown wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness The industry (tech, startups, VC money) do bring bullshit to the front of the industry consciousness. I’ve never seen another industry push and promote “fake it till you make it” so hard. Democratizing this...disrupting that...we respect your privacy and data...DAO/code is law...Self driving cars...uber is creating good jobs.…

A colleague of mine put the problem more succinctly “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Most executives in finance have done some form of financial analysis and reporting, construction company owners have almost always done a hard day’s worth of labor, and a lot of directors have had to do some acting / camera work and whatnot. In tech (especiall…

> “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?”

Most? Sorry for the blunt answer, but I really don't know how this can even be a question. The "I worked the assembly line and now I'm the CEO" is Hollywood fiction or outright lies in 99% of the cases.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#133

Post by gooseus »

misterman0 wrote: post #98
will_brown wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness The industry (tech, startups, VC money) do bring bullshit to the front of the industry consciousness. I’ve never seen another industry push and promote “fake it till you make it” so hard. Democratizing this...disrupting that...we respect your privacy and data...DAO/code is law...Self driving cars...uber is creating good jobs.…

>> push and promote “fake it till you make it” Causality then render a situation where bullshitters have now gotten so good at faking it that buyers of tech are simply herrings among hungry dolphins. Bullshitters in our industry have united and made it impossible for buyers (herrings) to see any other choice but to become swallowed as a meal. So they try their best to choose the very best dolphin to be swallowed by.…

"If you see fraud and do not say fraud, then you are a fraud." - NNT

Still something I'm trying to live up to and it's much easier said than done... likely there is a selection mechanism in these organizations where anyone with the courage to do that is recognized and passed over early, or else is removed as soon as they do this.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#134

Post by Nursie »

kuzehanka wrote: post #7

The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness. Our industry is one where the impostor complex is rife and anyone who sounds confident must know what they're talking about, since even the PhD's aren't half as confident in their field of expertise as a bullshitter is at anything. The tech industry is increasingly inundated with these types of people who manage to get placed…

The 'Product Managers' who don't know what the product does and the 'Business Analysts' that have no idea about the marketplace and who solipsitically shuffle Jira tickets endlessly...

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#135

Post by parksy »

plutonorm wrote: post #47
stelfer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The realization that I came to was that by speaking up I was usually asking a question that many people were not asking; by providing a strong opinion it would help to catalyze deliberate action. If you stay silent we'll never get anything really done.

Yeah, but I find I usually take a social hit by asking the question. A good 80% of those listening will think that you simply don't understand something. The other 20% are either indifferent or actively threatened by the observation. It doesn't pay to speak up about anything, you just get talked down to by those who are bullshitting.

I'm familiar with this scenario. It took a while to find the right approach and build the confidence to challenge a room of people with this mindset. It is definitely possible to stand up to this mentality and succeed in a workplace, but it is a constant challenge.

After a long time fighting these battles I realised I had gained a lot of skills in dealing with narcissists and sociopaths in the mission to simply be good at what I do, to the point where doing so was a large portion of my "job". This was taking a lot out of me personally, it detracted from advancing my desired skill set, I did not enjoy the type of person I was becoming, I hated going into meetings where I knew so and so would be there, despite knowing I could win over the room. Over time the general anxiety and fatigue bled into my personal life and outlook to the point where I basically had a mental breakdown (though I was pretty good at hiding it).

The best thing I did was to get the hell out of there and learn how to identify companies like this ASAP, preferably during the interview itself. Better to have something else lined up first, but I have endured long months of no income rather than place myself in such a toxic environment again and am all the happier for it, my marriage and relationship with my kids improved immeasurably once I took my hand out of the fire so to speak.

There are many great companies, from startups to global enterprise who value an open and inclusive culture, newer companies especially are wising up to the damage bullshitting narcissists inflict on their reputation and bottom line.

A really great company to work for gives everyone in the room a voice, and they definitely exist. Although finding the right fit can take some time and a fair amount of pain along the way, it is worth it in the end if you value your sanity and wish to avoid burnout.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#136

Post by logfromblammo »

bigred100 wrote: post #10
scandox wrote: post #3

I'm amazed Ireland is so low on the bullshit scale. I feel like we're amazingly good at it. Actually I would say that the country is full of quite subtle bullshitters. I think they gamed the test.

I imagine a good bullshitter would also be a good antibullshitter (wait for a situation where one could conceivably bullshit, and, if someone tries, press them in a way that will reveal what they’re doing if they are bullshitting, and be harmless if they aren’t)

I also imagine the converse. A good antibullshitter can be a passable bullshitter.

If you know which patterns peg your bogometer, you can avoid using them yourself in situations where you need to be believed.

For instance, I know that logorrhea, babbling, and "the gallop" are strong indicators of deception. The bull can always shit faster than the farmer can shovel it. So when I want to be believed, I could pause after every point, and maybe take some strawmen from a partially-scripted faux-skeptic conspirator so I can knock them down.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#137

Post by ZebZ »

tru3_power wrote: post #15
kuzehanka wrote: post #7

The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness. Our industry is one where the impostor complex is rife and anyone who sounds confident must know what they're talking about, since even the PhD's aren't half as confident in their field of expertise as a bullshitter is at anything. The tech industry is increasingly inundated with these types of people who manage to get placed…

Dude I struggle with this everyday. When I first started off in my career I was so nervous to express any technical ideas or questions in front of other people because I thought I was stupid- as I started progressing in my career I learned that a lot of the people I encountered at work who were ultra confident (and probably attributed to my tech self-consciousness) actually knew way less than I thought. I still don’t…

When you are young, you think adults have it all figured out. When you become an adult yourself, you realize a good chunk of people are straight winging it and, in many cases, entire companies are winging it all together without fully realizing it.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#138

Post by minikites »

trevor-e wrote: post #71
Fede_V wrote: post #21

If you've never experienced it before, the first time you work with someone who is a pathological liar and bullshitter is a completely disorienting experience. Normal people just don't lie that brazenly and with so little remorse - so you walk out of meetings wondering if perhaps you just misunderstood because there's no way someone would straight up lie that way. Interestingly, both of the worst bullshitters I've ev…

I think academia is a special brooding ground for this kind of people. Everyone is worried about their own professional reputation since it sticks with them for a long time — unlike a regular job where you can jump around easier — so very few people are willing to put theirs on the line unless they have undeniable proof. There's also a big power dynamic at play where underlings don't want to question a senior profess…

>There's also a big power dynamic at play where underlings don't want to question a senior professor because obviously the professor knows what they're doing.

This exists much more directly in business. Questioning your boss can lead to you getting fired by that boss. A senior professor can't fire an adjunct. A dean can't arbitrarily fire a professor with tenure.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#139

Post by edgarvaldes »

rmbryan wrote: post #2

It's important to note that this study focuses on data from 15-year-olds taking a math test. I assert that drawing broad conclusions based on that sample is suspect and may be, in fact, bullshit itself.

But the paper is very clear about that limitations.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#140

Post by vonmoltke »

PeterStuer wrote: post #131
devonkim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colleague of mine put the problem more succinctly “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Most executives in finance have done some form of financial analysis and reporting, construction company owners have almost always done a hard day’s worth of labor, and a lot of directors have had to do some acting / camera work and whatnot. In tech (especiall…

> “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Most? Sorry for the blunt answer, but I really don't know how this can even be a question. The "I worked the assembly line and now I'm the CEO" is Hollywood fiction or outright lies in 99% of the cases.

> The "I worked the assembly line and now I'm the CEO" is Hollywood fiction or outright lies in 99% of the cases.

Do you have a citation for 99% or are you... bullshitting?

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