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Flutter desktop shells

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Re: Flutter desktop shells

#131

Post by mottosso »

weberc2 wrote: post #124
yc-kraln wrote: post #3

I really want to like Flutter, but I someone really don't want to spend the time to learn Dart. I can't really quantify it--some mix of yet-another Proprietary Google Technology, yet another ecosystem, yet another X. I'm tired I just want to build stuff that solves problems.

Context: I was a Qt developer in a past life. The alternatives for cross-platform GUI are 1. Electron 2. Frameworks like C++/Qt C/Gtk 3. Bindings to (2) Using frameworks like Qt in native C++ sucks because C and C++ are just terrible languages for GUI development, even with the bolted on object systems and language extensions (Qt extends the C++ language). Using bindings to those frameworks is nice in theory because…

> So (3) is hardly better than (2).

As someone developing GUIs with Qt bindings for Python daily, and has been for the past 8-9 years, I respectfully disagree.

Understanding of the underlying types and memory management is rarely an issue (e.g. once every 3 months), and when it is it's incredibly straightforward (e.g. maintaining reference to a window you've just created else Python garbage collects it for you).

Topics like these appear every now and then and remind me how there are still developers out there that still struggle to find the right combination of language and framework, some resorting to Electron because of assertions like this. This is a solved problem for my line of work - VFX and workflow related tools.

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#132

Post by pjmlp »

axaxs wrote: post #4
yc-kraln wrote: post #3

I really want to like Flutter, but I someone really don't want to spend the time to learn Dart. I can't really quantify it--some mix of yet-another Proprietary Google Technology, yet another ecosystem, yet another X. I'm tired I just want to build stuff that solves problems.

You could say the same about Objective C, and to a lesser extent Swift. While I respect your opinion, and somewhat agree on it being a weird choice to use Dart, I think there is value in learning it iff it becomes the ubiquitous way to write apps for mobile.

Objective-C and Swift help sell Apple's hardware.

Besides Ad Words, there is very little being sold by Dart.

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#133

Post by axaxs »

pjmlp wrote: post #132
axaxs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say the same about Objective C, and to a lesser extent Swift. While I respect your opinion, and somewhat agree on it being a weird choice to use Dart, I think there is value in learning it iff it becomes the ubiquitous way to write apps for mobile.

Objective-C and Swift help sell Apple's hardware. Besides Ad Words, there is very little being sold by Dart.

How so? Do you think apple sales would drop if they switched all development to using a more mainstream language?

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#134

Post by badsectoracula »

winter_blue wrote: post #121
nradov wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general it's just really disappointing that in 2019 the development frameworks we have available are still objectively worse in terms of developer productivity, reliability, and documentation than what we had with Microsoft Visual Basic or Borland Delphi back in 1996. I totally understand that these modern frameworks are superior when it comes to cross-platform compatibility and easy application distribution, but…

I learned Visual Basic 6 from a cousin when I was 8 years old. It was such a joy to use, and made me fall in love with programming. It was so intuitive to use as an 8 year-old. And while Dijkstra might disapprove, the Basic language of VB6 was really simple and easy to grasp as a kid. The coolest part was distribution. Under the File menu, you had an option to build a .exe file. I would build it and put the .exe file…

Dijkstra had issues with the older BASICs where the only way to control flow was with GOTOs and people flinging them all over the place. Visual Basic 6 (and QBasic before it) has Algol-like structures like subs, functions, while/repeat loops, etc so it would satisfy the issues Dijkstra had with older BASICs (if he'd dislike it for other reasons is another matter though).

Most people just repeat Dijkstra's headlines without having even read his text, let alone understanding it.

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#135

Post by kickopotomus »

weberc2 wrote: post #124
yc-kraln wrote: post #3

I really want to like Flutter, but I someone really don't want to spend the time to learn Dart. I can't really quantify it--some mix of yet-another Proprietary Google Technology, yet another ecosystem, yet another X. I'm tired I just want to build stuff that solves problems.

Context: I was a Qt developer in a past life. The alternatives for cross-platform GUI are 1. Electron 2. Frameworks like C++/Qt C/Gtk 3. Bindings to (2) Using frameworks like Qt in native C++ sucks because C and C++ are just terrible languages for GUI development, even with the bolted on object systems and language extensions (Qt extends the C++ language). Using bindings to those frameworks is nice in theory because…

To add to this, if you like concept/portability/cost-effectiveness of Electron but don't want to mess with the Node/npm ecosystem, there are chromium embedded frameworks out there for Java and Python[0][1][2].

[0]: https://bitbucket.org/chromiumembedded/java-cef

[1]: https://github.com/cztomczak/cefpython

[2]: https://www.teamdev.com/jxbrowser

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#136

Post by stephenr »

skybrian wrote: post #94
Reedx wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying that in Flutter threads, but it appears to be a small app for managing your ads? If it's just this, it wouldn't be hard to replace: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google-ads/id1037457231?mt=8 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... Via https://flutter.dev/showcase

Not just mobile. Dart (though not Flutter) is also used by the AdWords web app, which is quite enormous. That said, Adwords used to be written in GWT. It's not impossible to migrate, but quite a big job.

So, dart is safe until google moves onto the next thing it invents.

How’s GWT looking these days?

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#137

Post by kerberos84 »

weberc2 wrote: post #124
yc-kraln wrote: post #3

I really want to like Flutter, but I someone really don't want to spend the time to learn Dart. I can't really quantify it--some mix of yet-another Proprietary Google Technology, yet another ecosystem, yet another X. I'm tired I just want to build stuff that solves problems.

Context: I was a Qt developer in a past life. The alternatives for cross-platform GUI are 1. Electron 2. Frameworks like C++/Qt C/Gtk 3. Bindings to (2) Using frameworks like Qt in native C++ sucks because C and C++ are just terrible languages for GUI development, even with the bolted on object systems and language extensions (Qt extends the C++ language). Using bindings to those frameworks is nice in theory because…

Is java Swing/FX not cross-platfrom ?

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#138

Post by stu_k »

Flutter looked great, until I realised that they were re-implementing all the OS controls themselves. For example: https://github.com/flutter/flutter/blob/1db5d66932b873e17c8c...

This is the kind of thing that leads to an "uncanny valley" app, where things feel slightly off, or they look good until the OS changes something and Flutter doesn't keep up.

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#139

Post by specialist »

winter_blue wrote: post #121
nradov wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general it's just really disappointing that in 2019 the development frameworks we have available are still objectively worse in terms of developer productivity, reliability, and documentation than what we had with Microsoft Visual Basic or Borland Delphi back in 1996. I totally understand that these modern frameworks are superior when it comes to cross-platform compatibility and easy application distribution, but…

I learned Visual Basic 6 from a cousin when I was 8 years old. It was such a joy to use, and made me fall in love with programming. It was so intuitive to use as an 8 year-old. And while Dijkstra might disapprove, the Basic language of VB6 was really simple and easy to grasp as a kid. The coolest part was distribution. Under the File menu, you had an option to build a .exe file. I would build it and put the .exe file…

I know we're talking UI frameworks, but...

I think we lost something important with the shift from workgroup to client/server (especially ODBC).

I banged out a lot of dBase II, FoxBASE, MS Access (in-house) apps, back in the day. I've not felt as productive since. I miss it dearly.

Re: Flutter desktop shells

#140

Post by Apocryphon »

stephenr wrote: post #136
skybrian wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just mobile. Dart (though not Flutter) is also used by the AdWords web app, which is quite enormous. That said, Adwords used to be written in GWT. It's not impossible to migrate, but quite a big job.

So, dart is safe until google moves onto the next thing it invents. How’s GWT looking these days?

It lasted for about eleven years which is not bad as far as frameworks go.
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