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Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

thenewatlantis.com

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Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#121

It seems to me that the resolution of the quantum mysteries might come from three sources: (1) the Holographic Principle, (2) Dark Matter, and (3) the Planck Length. 1. The Holographic Principle. The universe looks three dimensional but fundamentally it is different. 3-D space is a projection from some 2-D circuit board. If I believe that, then I have no problem hearing about (a) hidden variables or (b) spooky action…

IMHO quantum mechaninc is too simple and fundamental for such complicated explanations. It only claims that probabilities of some elementary observations determined by complex number vectors wich evolve unitary.

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#122
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To say nothing of the fact that comparing a number to physical stuff will eventually bring you head on against Zeno’s paradox, one way or the other. Zeno's paradoxes are soluble by basic calculus. Once you distinguish between countable and uncountable infinities, the problem of crossing a bounded interval in finite time ceases to be paradoxical. This is basically to say I don't think this is a particular problem fo…

>Zeno's paradoxes are soluble by basic calculus. Once you distinguish between countable and uncountable infinities, the problem of crossing a bounded interval in finite time ceases to be paradoxical. They're not mathematically paradoxical, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the paradoxes are solved, because there's more than just math going on. A lot of the paradoxes hinge on the question of whether it is in fact…

No, calculus does in fact resolve them. More specifically, formalizing continuity and completeness obviates the issue. Like I said, if you distinguish between countable and uncountable infinities, there is no longer a paradox.

The only reason it appears to be paradoxical is because you're mandating someone move from a real coordinate (a, b, c) to another real coordinate (a', b', c') on the interval [x, y] while also passing through the set of all real points between them, without first defining a notion of distance of time. That's not possible for the same reason you can't ask someone to count all reals on an interval, because continuity implies uncountability. Between any pair of real numbers is another real number, and it takes an equal amount of effort (and time) to count any given number.

To a first glance, this seems like a paradox because we can clearly move from (a, b, c) to (a', b', c), yet we shouldn't be capable of any movement whatsoever. Calculus solves this problem by formalizing Zeno's demand as a geometric series with a notion of distance. The requirement is that you move from one position to another position while passing through every halfway position between them. Equip the vector space ℝ^3 with the Euclidean metric so you have a metric space (defined distance). Then we have the sequence of steps

    (a, b, c) -> |(a, b, c) - (a', b', c')|/2 -> ... -> (a', b', c')
which corresponds to the geometric series

    (1/2)^1 + (1/2)^2 + (1/2)^3 + ...
that series converges to 1: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(1%2F2)%5E1+%2B+(1%2F2....

More concretely: an infinite expansion such as 0.99999999... is equal to 1. Each half step will take only half as long to traverse as the half step preceding it to it once you've defined Euclidean distance on a continuous space. The first step to formalizing sequences and series like this is by constructing the real numbers as a continuous set and distinguishing between different types of infinities. Then you can define limits, and from there you're essentially done.

Note that at no point am I talking about what happens when you reach 1, or (a', b', c'), or anywhere else. I'm just explaining how you reach it in finite time. If you can get arbitrarily close to a point, you can get to the point itself.

I guess I should be more technical and say that real analysis solves this problem, because what's really doing the heavy lifting here is the topology induced by defining a metric on ℝ^3 in combination with the notion of limits.

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#123
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Zeno's paradoxes are soluble by basic calculus. Once you distinguish between countable and uncountable infinities, the problem of crossing a bounded interval in finite time ceases to be paradoxical. They're not mathematically paradoxical, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the paradoxes are solved, because there's more than just math going on. A lot of the paradoxes hinge on the question of whether it is in fact…

No, calculus does in fact resolve them. More specifically, formalizing continuity and completeness obviates the issue. Like I said, if you distinguish between countable and uncountable infinities, there is no longer a paradox. The only reason it appears to be paradoxical is because you're mandating someone move from a real coordinate (a, b, c) to another real coordinate (a', b', c') on the interval [x, y] while also…

Ok, I’ll try one more time.

Clearly, not all infinite sequences can be summed. So e.g., 1, -1, 1, -1, … has no sum.

Now suppose that Achilles takes alternate forward and backward steps a (countably) infinite number of times. The first step takes one second, the second step takes half a second, and so on. (Each step covers the same distance.) Where does he end up after 2 seconds?

There’s no sensible answer to that question. Does that mean that Achilles can’t in fact traverse that particular sequence of steps? But then, why should he be unable to traverse a particular infinite sequence of steps merely because its sum is undefined? After all, the result of each individual step is perfectly well defined. If it’s possible in general to traverse infinite sequences, what stops him traversing that one?

To me, this just seems like Zeno’s paradox all over again. The mathematical treatment is more sophisticated, but the underlying paradox remains.

Zeno himself probably wouldn’t have distinguished carefully between summing an infinite sequence and spatially or temporally traversing it, since both notions would have seemed equally absurd from his point of view. Modern mathematics has shown us that the former isn’t in fact absurd. But Zeno’s paradoxes are arguably about the latter.

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#124
post #72
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a common error. Macroscopic "everyday" objects don't have a definite position and momentum. Macroscopic objects are quantum objects. But when the mass is big enough, the position and momentum can be defined simultaneously with an error that is so small that you can just ignore the uncertainty and approximate them as classical objects. To put this into simpler terms: Whenever we measure something, we need to…

This is not a correct description at all of QM complementary observables. This is a purely classical explanation (and was one of the first layman "explanations" back in 1920, but that was 100 years ago and QM is much better understood now).

Could you elaborate on that? From my extremely limited knowledge it does seem like a just-so explanation (what you're responding to), but I'm not sure why.

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this analogy holds up. Consider the double slit experiment: throw a bunch of basketballs at a wall and see what pattern of hits they leave by looking at where they hit the wall. If the wall is being looked at (observed), we see one pattern. If we look away, conduct the experiment, then check it, we find another. To me that suggests the act of “observance” effects the probability distribution of likely s…

There are two walls. One wall has two slits, the other wall is where the particles/waves/balls/whatever colide and form the interference pattern (or not). You don't need someone observing the second wall to get the interference patters. You can replace the person with a photographic plate, a CCD sensor of a camera, or other equipment. All off them are more precise, reliable and even cheaper than a graduate student wi…

> This is not a technological problem. It is how the universe work. If you propose to use some particular method (like using light to detect the balls) you will sooner or later find that there is something that gets broken (see the former comment).

what confuses me in various explanations like this is that the whole 'act of observing affects what you observe' thing seems to be rather particular in that it turns the wave-like behavior into particle-like behavior, which strikes me as rather weird/counter-intuitive. Why don't we just get slightly different interference patterns? Or some spectrum of effect between wave-like and particle-like?

Is my confusion mostly a result of the limits of the analogies presented to me as a layman?

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#126
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, calculus does in fact resolve them. More specifically, formalizing continuity and completeness obviates the issue. Like I said, if you distinguish between countable and uncountable infinities, there is no longer a paradox. The only reason it appears to be paradoxical is because you're mandating someone move from a real coordinate (a, b, c) to another real coordinate (a', b', c') on the interval [x, y] while also…

Ok, I’ll try one more time. Clearly, not all infinite sequences can be summed. So e.g., 1, -1, 1, -1, … has no sum. Now suppose that Achilles takes alternate forward and backward steps a (countably) infinite number of times. The first step takes one second, the second step takes half a second, and so on. (Each step covers the same distance.) Where does he end up after 2 seconds? There’s no sensible answer to that que…

> Clearly, not all infinite sequences can be summed. So e.g., 1, -1, 1, -1, … has no sum.

Your geometric series is not a summation of the steps or positions, but rather the time required to complete each step. Therefore your example is characterized by an identical geometric series to the model I used in my previous comment.

More generally, Zeno’s paradox can be succinctly resolved by citing the monotone convergence theorem. Every bounded, monotonically decreasing function converges. The time required to complete the infinite series of half steps converges, because (again, with the definition of a metric) the time required to complete each individual step decreases commensurate with the change in distance.

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this analogy holds up. Consider the double slit experiment: throw a bunch of basketballs at a wall and see what pattern of hits they leave by looking at where they hit the wall. If the wall is being looked at (observed), we see one pattern. If we look away, conduct the experiment, then check it, we find another. To me that suggests the act of “observance” effects the probability distribution of likely s…

There are two walls. One wall has two slits, the other wall is where the particles/waves/balls/whatever colide and form the interference pattern (or not). You don't need someone observing the second wall to get the interference patters. You can replace the person with a photographic plate, a CCD sensor of a camera, or other equipment. All off them are more precise, reliable and even cheaper than a graduate student wi…

Quantum Eraser Experiment

> The double-slit quantum eraser experiment

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#128
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I’ll try one more time. Clearly, not all infinite sequences can be summed. So e.g., 1, -1, 1, -1, … has no sum. Now suppose that Achilles takes alternate forward and backward steps a (countably) infinite number of times. The first step takes one second, the second step takes half a second, and so on. (Each step covers the same distance.) Where does he end up after 2 seconds? There’s no sensible answer to that que…

> Clearly, not all infinite sequences can be summed. So e.g., 1, -1, 1, -1, … has no sum. Your geometric series is not a summation of the steps or positions, but rather the time required to complete each step. Therefore your example is characterized by an identical geometric series to the model I used in my previous comment. More generally, Zeno’s paradox can be succinctly resolved by citing the monotone convergence…

>Therefore your example is characterized by an identical geometric series to the model I used in my previous comment.

I am not sure what you mean here. You can calculate the sum of the time series, but you can't calculate Achilles' final position, which is the question at issue. The question remains: if it's possible in general to traverse an infinite sequence of steps in space, why is it not possible to traverse the one that I specified? "Solving" Zeno's paradox by admitting the possibility of traversing an infinite series of points in space or time seems to give rise to paradoxes just as deep as the originals.

> The time required to complete the infinite series of half steps converges, because (again, with the definition of a metric) the time required to complete each individual step decreases commensurate with the change in distance.

Yes, that was Aristotle's observation and a key part of his proposed solution to the paradox. The problem is that this explains why it's possible to sum the series, not why it's possible to traverse it. You seem to be taking the position that any series that cannot be summed cannot be traversed. But why should that be so?

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#129
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly, not all infinite sequences can be summed. So e.g., 1, -1, 1, -1, … has no sum. Your geometric series is not a summation of the steps or positions, but rather the time required to complete each step. Therefore your example is characterized by an identical geometric series to the model I used in my previous comment. More generally, Zeno’s paradox can be succinctly resolved by citing the monotone convergence…

>Therefore your example is characterized by an identical geometric series to the model I used in my previous comment. I am not sure what you mean here. You can calculate the sum of the time series, but you can't calculate Achilles' final position, which is the question at issue. The question remains: if it's possible in general to traverse an infinite sequence of steps in space, why is it not possible to traverse the…

Thinking about this a bit more, I think what I'm trying to say is that Zeno's paradox is more about supertasks than it is about the problem of computing the sum of an infinite series. There's a nice summary article that I found here:

http://personal.lse.ac.uk/ROBERT49/teaching/ph103/2013-2014/...

Re: Why have so many physicists shrugged off the paradoxes of quantum mechanics?

#130
post #124
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a correct description at all of QM complementary observables. This is a purely classical explanation (and was one of the first layman "explanations" back in 1920, but that was 100 years ago and QM is much better understood now).

Could you elaborate on that? From my extremely limited knowledge it does seem like a just-so explanation (what you're responding to), but I'm not sure why.

The 'measuring something disturbs it' idea described above is called the observer effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

The observer effect is a real thing, and even has interesting effects in quantum mechanics, e.g. the quantum zeno effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect

Yet the observer effect is not the reason why we can't know an object's position and velocity at the same time. There are two ways we can see that this supposed explanation is a red herring:

- We don't need to interact with (e.g. 'bounce a photon off') a quantum system in order to observe it ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction-free_measurement ). I particularly like the "quantum bomb detector" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitzur%E2%80%93Vaidman_bomb_t... ), which can tells us whether a photon detector connected to a bomb is working or not, without hitting it with a photon and hence triggering the bomb (50% of the time, at least).

- The actual reason, the uncertainty principle ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle ), doesn't require any notion of observation at all, let alone interaction. It's a simple property of waves (the relationship between duration and frequency). 3blue1brown did a nice video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBnnXbOM5S4

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