Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA • Hacker News Board

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#121

Post by darksaints » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #92

darksaints wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative view is that most Americans have only ever known one type of government: an incompetent one. We spend more per capita on Medicare than most first world countries spend on their universal health care, but we only cover 15% of the population. We build roads, railroads, pipelines, and other basic infrastructure at 4-10x markup over the costs that other first world countries are paying. We spend more on e…

I mean, the old adage that it's expensive to be poor applies to government spending too. If you're missing 30% of what you need in the moment, you're probably going to end up spending way more over time.

But we aren't doing that. For example, Medicare already has the budget for universal health care, if we are going by standards for cost effectiveness that are set by other first world countries. But we don't have universal health care, do we?

Imagine having a government that through intense reform gave us top tier primary education, universal health care, and 10x more infrastructure, and they did it without raising taxes. All of that is possible today.

Now imagine that that same government proposed a new program for FTTH in all major metro areas. Passing funding for such a program would be a breeze. The government could say "this will cost you $x less than you are currently paying" and people would actually believe them!

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#122

Post by naravara » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #107

naravara wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. It's not "I got mine" attitude nearly as much as it is plain racism. As a block, White Americans preferred to shred social services rather than extending the umb…

In the US there's a strong belief in self reliance. Just because something is harder doesn't mean it's worse (so the thinking goes). You can't honestly say everyone that supported Regan is racist. People just don't believe in hand outs, to anyone (I know I don't). There's nothing racist about that. You're also ignoring many other social issues that Republican's have traditionally supported that have nothing to do wit…

>In the US there's a strong belief in self reliance.

This is mostly a self-aggrandizing myth. According to the world values survey (here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inglehart_Values_Map...) the US puts LESS emphasis on self-expression than most of the Nordics and even the Anglosphere outside of the British Isles. All countries have much stronger safety nets than we do. It's Britain and the US where Thatcherism shredded the safety net, and in both cases the conservative parties went hard on racially coded appeals to get working class support to do it.

Just from eyeballing it, I would guess traditionalism vs. secular-rationalism is the axis that determines robustness of the safety net. But that's a hard correlation to draw just because of how much variables like state capacity and literacy play a role.

> People just don't believe in hand outs, to anyone (I know I don't). There's nothing racist about that.

It's not a coincidence that all the talk about "hand outs" focused on racially coded language about who is receiving the hand outs. It's not an accident that the "welfare queen" narratives were always in the projects of urban areas and never in trailer parks.

>You're also ignoring many other social issues that Republican's have traditionally supported that have nothing to do with race. There are probably very few people taking race into consideration at all when they vote.

Plenty of other countries have socially conservative parties that still advocate for strong welfare states. Christian Democratic parties throughout Europe are like this. Christian Democrats start losing to right wing conservatives right around when a lot of immigrants or refugees show up. This too, is not a coincidence.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#123

Post by pathseeker » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #58

somethoughts wrote: post #39

Interestingly it seems from this articles figures that the actual disposable income of the middle class and lower class of the US is much higher than in Europe [1]. "The United States’ smaller middle income group still earns more than almost all its Western European counterparts. The average disposable income among middle income Americans in 2010 was $60,884, placing it comfortably ahead of Norway, which averaged $56…

One would hope so, given the astronomical cost of healthcare and the near-universal requirement that every household own and maintain at least one car in order to work and attend school.

You overestimate how much a car costs and you overestimate how many middle-class people are paying for their own healthcare.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#124

Post by matwood » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #32

In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…

> The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all.

Here's the rub. Everyone agrees the government is dysfunctional, but no one agrees on the fix. Your fix appears to be to give the dysfunctional government more money to be dysfunctional with. Others would prefer to give a dysfunctional government less money to waste.

Until we get past the give more/less money argument, we will never fix what's wrong with the US government. The problem is so much deeper than pay a little more or less.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#125

Post by pathseeker » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

ranie93 wrote: post #111

WalterBright wrote: post #81

Yet the chart shows that the US middle class is much wealthier than the middle class of other countries.

And also smaller, that can't be forgotten. Reading this through the lens of income inequality; I don't think having a smaller, yet richer middle class, is necessarily something to be proud of.

Eliminating people at the higher income brackets until the average has lowered enough that you have a large middle class isn't something to be proud of either.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#126

Post by umvi » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #93

umvi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have anything to prove it but I swear countries like Japan and Germany are very good at this sort of thing because the people have a culture of strict obedience to authority be it the government or whatever. They love having and following well defined rules and are nonplussed (in the original sense of the word) when people break the rules. People in USA have the opposite attitude towards authority and rules.…

Italy's health care is pretty good actually. Lived there for 15 years, on and off. My son was born there. My father in law survived a bad heart attack there. Yes, there are areas in the south where it's not so good, but any reasonably large country probably has some areas where things don't work as well. People live long, healthy, happy productive lives there.

> Yes, there are areas in the south where it's not so good

I was in Naples at the time and was a little disturbed by how lax the doctors (well, really everyone) seemed. I guess I shouldn't judge Italy's government/healthcare based on my experience in Naples, I have heard that northern Italy is on the ball for the most part.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#127

Post by rayiner » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #115

rayiner wrote: post #86

It's worth reading the underlying OECD report: https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-healt... Two points based on the charts on page 44, 46. 1) Looking at just "middle income" people exaggerates the situation in the U.S. because part of the reason the U.S. has a smaller middle class is because it has a bigger upper class. About 15% of the U.S. is "upper income" versus 5% in countries like Denmark, No…

You obviously know this, but for those who are not familiar with America, regarding #2 above, the experience in the US is vastly different from other rich countries. > The lower threshold for the U.S. is $23,416 PPP-adjusted 2010 dollars per year. A person that makes this in the US usually will not receive health insurance at work. Depending on the specifics of the person's demographics/state/income, a worker at the…

That is true, but that's also only one side of the story. Statistically, most people won't need to use the safety net. And while Americans have less security, they also enjoy a substantially higher level of material comfort. Americans have more/newer cars, live in bigger houses, etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/ons-english-homes-are-a-thir...

Now, I think it would be better to have more of a safety net and less in the way of material comforts. But it's not fair to ignore the fact that higher incomes come with tangible benefits for Americans. It's not all downside with no upside.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#128

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

naravara wrote: post #66

mbesto wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. [0]Example - in the UK there is very much a "these are the cards I've been dealt" attitude towards social mobility.

>Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. It's not "I got mine" attitude nearly as much as it is plain racism. As a block, White Americans preferred to shred social services rather than extending the umb…

> Why else would "hardhats" have voted for Ronald Reagan over their own working class interests?

Lack of a perceived positive vision from the other side; the lack of doing something with the moment of attention after the crisis of confidence (or “malaise”, though he never said that in it) speech is particularly frequently pointed to.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#129

Post by malvosenior » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

naravara wrote: post #122

malvosenior wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US there's a strong belief in self reliance. Just because something is harder doesn't mean it's worse (so the thinking goes). You can't honestly say everyone that supported Regan is racist. People just don't believe in hand outs, to anyone (I know I don't). There's nothing racist about that. You're also ignoring many other social issues that Republican's have traditionally supported that have nothing to do wit…

>In the US there's a strong belief in self reliance. This is mostly a self-aggrandizing myth. According to the world values survey (here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inglehart_Values_Map... ) the US puts LESS emphasis on self-expression than most of the Nordics and even the Anglosphere outside of the British Isles. All countries have much stronger safety nets than we do. It's Britain and the US where That…

It's not a myth, it's how I and other people I know actually feel. Do you think I'm speaking in coded racist terms and not being honest? I'm not, I just think we're all better off with the mindset that we should help ourselves first.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#130

Post by residentfoam » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #57

ixtli wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't even get me started. I did a year and a half of university in Tokyo and I used and paid for the health care system there a few times. Cavities filled for 20 dollars at high end central Tokyo offices. Skin doctors for zero dollars and prescribed creams for 800 yen. I knew a brain surgeon there who told me that the max price you could pay for his services was equivalent to 700 dollars. He didn't even bother going…

I don't have anything to prove it but I swear countries like Japan and Germany are very good at this sort of thing because the people have a culture of strict obedience to authority be it the government or whatever. They love having and following well defined rules and are nonplussed (in the original sense of the word) when people break the rules. People in USA have the opposite attitude towards authority and rules.…

> Italy's healthcare is a circus

1 - Italy was the 4th European country to introduce a smoking ban in public places.

2 - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/u-s-near-...

"Spain’s health system efficiency ranked third behind Hong Kong and Singapore, followed by that of Italy, which moved up two spots from a year earlier. Italy ranked as the world’s healthiest country in a separate Bloomberg gauge."