Yet the chart shows that the US middle class is much wealthier than the middle class of other countries.
Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
81–90 of 205 posts
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#82My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )
They aren't completely wrong. 76% of Americans spend a year of their life in the top 20%, 56% in the top 10%. https://www.aei.org/publication/evidence-shows-significant-i...
> 76% of Americans spend a year of their life in the top 20%,
That's not that surprising; median income for 45-54 age range is about 70th percentile overall, so do a little better than median in this age range and it's easy to hit top 20%; of courses this is still an income that is (especially on a non-sustained basis) not a sign of significant difference in economic relationships from the median—its working or lower middle class, in traditional terms, and not—contrary to AEIs spin, evidence for class mobility.
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#83My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )
This causes them to act against their own best interests. This is why enlightenment values have ultimately tilted toward capitalism. No collective can accurately define the best interests of every individual and design a policy to match. Better to let them sort it out themselves.
Better on what evidence overall, regarding the entire economy and all classes?
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#84In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…
Don't even get me started. I did a year and a half of university in Tokyo and I used and paid for the health care system there a few times. Cavities filled for 20 dollars at high end central Tokyo offices. Skin doctors for zero dollars and prescribed creams for 800 yen. I knew a brain surgeon there who told me that the max price you could pay for his services was equivalent to 700 dollars. He didn't even bother going…
You didn't have a wait because that's the ER. Scheduling a complex plan of care would probably have a different story.
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#85Healthcare, college, and childcare are all exceptionally expensive in America. Those are the fundamentals to having a middle-class life. You're better off as a middle class person in Western Europe than an upper-middle class person in the US. We have virtually no safety nets either. At least Europeans have a better sense of community and family and a welfare state to offer a safety net. I think being an average American is definitely more stressful than being your average Western European. I blame republicans like Reagan, Newt Gingrich, Bush Sr. and Jr., Mitch McConnell, and Paul Ryan for the hollowing out of the middle class and giving trillions in tax cuts to billionaires. Vote Bernie if you want this to change and vote for Medicare for all.
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#86It's worth reading the underlying OECD report: https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-healt...
Two points based on the charts on page 44, 46.
1) Looking at just "middle income" people exaggerates the situation in the U.S. because part of the reason the U.S. has a smaller middle class is because it has a bigger upper class. About 15% of the U.S. is "upper income" versus 5% in countries like Denmark, Norway, or France. At the other end, about 35% of the U.S. is "lower income" or below. That's on the high side, but Sweden, Ireland, and the U.K. are not that far off, at about 30%. Even Norway and Denmark are in the 25-26% range.
The more concerning thing (and the OECD report focuses on that) is that almost 20% of the U.S. is poor (below 50% of median income) versus say 10% in Sweden (or 5% in Denmark).
2) Being "middle income" means different things in different countries. The lower threshold for the U.S. is $23,416 PPP-adjusted 2010 dollars per year. That's right around the median income for Germany. Put differently, someone who is right at the boundary between "middle income" and "lower income" in the U.S. is right at the median income in Germany. Many of the people in the U.S. classified as "low income" in the U.S. would still qualify as "middle income" in Germany.
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#87I have a real, honest to goodness question. I live in the Bay Area. I make $200,000 a year. I just had a mini-exit where I netted about $300K after taxes. I still rent for $2700/month. I don't want to buy an overpriced home in the bay in the suburbs (I wish we had for-sale condos like Toronto everywhere... still don't know why) I do well. I'm 32. I'm on an upwards path. But I don't feel upper class. I feel middle cla…
Yes? You make several times what most families make and are well into the top 10%.
You probably have an easy time comparing yourself to a billionaire's lifestyle and saying "I'm not rich". You probably have a hard time visualizing and comparing yourself to the typical American lifestyle of a typical earner or even low-earner and saying "I'm incredibly rich compared to most". But that's on you. You could go and learn more about how most people live. Go and find all the people - tens of millions of them in the US - who, when they have a cavity, don't go to the dentist because they can't afford it. Say hi to them, ask them about their life.
It is possible to get away from $9 coffees and recalibrate your wealth evaluation system.
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#88Interestingly it seems from this articles figures that the actual disposable income of the middle class and lower class of the US is much higher than in Europe [1]. "The United States’ smaller middle income group still earns more than almost all its Western European counterparts. The average disposable income among middle income Americans in 2010 was $60,884, placing it comfortably ahead of Norway, which averaged $56…
One would hope so, given the astronomical cost of healthcare and the near-universal requirement that every household own and maintain at least one car in order to work and attend school.
What is the average healthcare costs for an American?
Aren't the majority of people in the US covered by Medicare or their employers plans?
I'm from Canada so I'm curious what the yearly costs would be like. I typically lean libertarian on most areas of gov-run organizations but, much like prisons, public health insurance makes far more sense to be completely centralized vs the US random centralization and countless layers of legislation over their pretend private market.
They are wasting money: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/He...
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#89This is misleading. Every countries in Europe would have a smaller middle class if you take the $32-33k median US income.
If you mean the whole world, then yes that is (mostly) true, but it is true for every high income nation, and therefore not really informative.
If you mean against other high income nation's, then it is only true in the most superficial sense, as once you include all benefits available to people, and social and economic mobility, the US quickly falls down the charts.
Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA
#90My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )
They aren't completely wrong. 76% of Americans spend a year of their life in the top 20%, 56% in the top 10%. https://www.aei.org/publication/evidence-shows-significant-i...
>> My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here.
>They aren't completely wrong. 76% of Americans spend a year of their life in the top 20%, 56% in the top 10%.
Top 20% is > $79,000
Top 10% is > $114,000
That's not even in the ballpark. They are completely wrong.