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Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

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Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#51

Post by cpmsmith »

wildmusings wrote: post #10
friday99 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The graph isn't about absolute levels, but income distribution. The point I think they are trying to make is that higher total income countries tend to have a more equal income distribution. The US doesn't fit that trend, though also some of the lower total income countries such as the Czech Republic have more equal distribution as well.

It’s incredibly deceptive because not only is almost everyone in the US wealthier than their counterparts in the distribution in Europe, but they have much higher purchasing power due to much lower prices.

That's what the X axis is for.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#52

Post by ixtli »

mbesto wrote: post #38
ixtli wrote: post #4

My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )

Conversely, it's also what has attracted so many immigrants to America and created so much historic social mobility[0]. Note - I believe this has largely been reversed (and thus stagnated) due to a generation of "I got mine" attitudes, aka the Baby Boomers. [0]Example - in the UK there is very much a "these are the cards I've been dealt" attitude towards social mobility.

Well certainly working up from nothing in America is still better than certain places an immigrant can come from but i do increasingly feel bad for people who do this when they're not from a war zone :/

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#54

Post by ixtli »

drocer88 wrote: post #19

Top 20 congressional districts by income are Democratic. Proof : https://finance.yahoo.com/news/midterms-one-party-controls-w... When the alternative is an "opposition" party that is suffering from "affluenza" , it's unlikely real fixes will happen anytime soon.

This is a bit misleading. It doesn't mean that the rich are predominantly rich (though this could be the case): that map is also basically a population density map which is, according to what i've seen, the only clear predictor of whether or not a county is likely to be "blue."

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#55

Post by adreamingsoul »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #8

I have a real, honest to goodness question. I live in the Bay Area. I make $200,000 a year. I just had a mini-exit where I netted about $300K after taxes. I still rent for $2700/month. I don't want to buy an overpriced home in the bay in the suburbs (I wish we had for-sale condos like Toronto everywhere... still don't know why) I do well. I'm 32. I'm on an upwards path. But I don't feel upper class. I feel middle cla…

Congratulations!

I'm based in the Pacific Northwest and feel similarly as you. It also happens that we are the same age.

Most of my friends and family make far less then me. Aside from co-workers, I don't have many people in my life who I can confide in about my salary, income, and the future. I often attribute my confusion with a lack of feedback.

I've worked hard to get to where I am and treat my income as a finite resource. It's something that I know will change in the future. I'm also aware of the risk of having all my income come from a single source.

I think it's hard to know if we are really "killing it". It also doesn't help when we are surrounded by people who have a similar income as us.

At the end of the day, are you happy with what you are doing? Is the income you are earning worth the time you are spending every day?

Personally, I would like to reduce my time spent as a software engineer without jeopardizing my family's safety and future.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#56

Post by ixtli »

dragonwriter wrote: post #31
ixtli wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the marxist line is that you dont feel upper class because you're not! I mean by some older definitions you're not even really middle class. The "orthodox" explanation of this is that if you own land you're middle class, if you profit off of it (e.g.: if you rent anything like land or people) then you're upper class. (The terms here are petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie.) It's clear to me that you definitely shou…

“Capital” rather than “land”, Land defines the feudal upper class, capital the capitalist upper class. But otherwise that's spot on.

You're right. The downvotes here are telling :)

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#57

Post by umvi »

ixtli wrote: post #43
yardie wrote: post #32

In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…

Don't even get me started. I did a year and a half of university in Tokyo and I used and paid for the health care system there a few times. Cavities filled for 20 dollars at high end central Tokyo offices. Skin doctors for zero dollars and prescribed creams for 800 yen. I knew a brain surgeon there who told me that the max price you could pay for his services was equivalent to 700 dollars. He didn't even bother going…

I don't have anything to prove it but I swear countries like Japan and Germany are very good at this sort of thing because the people have a culture of strict obedience to authority be it the government or whatever. They love having and following well defined rules and are nonplussed (in the original sense of the word) when people break the rules.

People in USA have the opposite attitude towards authority and rules.

Go someplace in Europe that doesn't have this culture and it breaks down. Italy's healthcare is a circus. When I was in Italy not even that long ago a doctor came in to see me with a lit cigarette in his mouth.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#58

Post by standardUser »

somethoughts wrote: post #39

Interestingly it seems from this articles figures that the actual disposable income of the middle class and lower class of the US is much higher than in Europe [1]. "The United States’ smaller middle income group still earns more than almost all its Western European counterparts. The average disposable income among middle income Americans in 2010 was $60,884, placing it comfortably ahead of Norway, which averaged $56…

One would hope so, given the astronomical cost of healthcare and the near-universal requirement that every household own and maintain at least one car in order to work and attend school.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#59

Post by RobAtticus »

the_economist wrote: post #46
ixtli wrote: post #4

My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )

They aren't completely wrong. 76% of Americans spend a year of their life in the top 20%, 56% in the top 10%. https://www.aei.org/publication/evidence-shows-significant-i...

The top 10% for individuals is 114k[0] and for a household is 178k[1]. They may eventually get to millionaire status, but there's still a long way to go. Basically, getting to 100+k at the end of a long career and plenty of saving & investing (which Americans are not great at [2]) may get you there, but I don't think those stats you provided really bear out the case.

[0] https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

[1] https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-pe...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are...

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#60

Post by sjg007 »

wildmusings wrote: post #10
friday99 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The graph isn't about absolute levels, but income distribution. The point I think they are trying to make is that higher total income countries tend to have a more equal income distribution. The US doesn't fit that trend, though also some of the lower total income countries such as the Czech Republic have more equal distribution as well.

It’s incredibly deceptive because not only is almost everyone in the US wealthier than their counterparts in the distribution in Europe, but they have much higher purchasing power due to much lower prices.

Most expenses are housing and health care.
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