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Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

kyso.io

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Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#41

Post by Isamu »

The middle income group in the US has shrunk to around 48% of population.

The lower income group has grown a bit and this is the real problem. This group is defined as below 75% of median.

The upper income group has also grown significantly. This is defined as above 200% of median. While we complain (rightly) about the share going to the upper few percent, the percentage of population that is upper income in the US may be significant compared to other "rich" countries. But we aren't given that graph for comparison.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#42

Post by Simon_says »

mfoy_ wrote: post #28
akhilcacharya wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make a lot less than that and my rent is more than that now... I’m also 10 years younger.

How exactly does a 22-year-old have a $3k+ rent?

Step 1: Major in computer science

Step 2: Graduate and get a programming job in SF.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#43

Post by ixtli »

yardie wrote: post #32

In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…

Don't even get me started. I did a year and a half of university in Tokyo and I used and paid for the health care system there a few times. Cavities filled for 20 dollars at high end central Tokyo offices. Skin doctors for zero dollars and prescribed creams for 800 yen. I knew a brain surgeon there who told me that the max price you could pay for his services was equivalent to 700 dollars. He didn't even bother going to conferences in America, and this was 10 years ago.

Oh, and people love to talk about wait and access to doctors: not only did none of my experiences have a wait they didn't even have a schedule. I simply walked in to an office and was seen immediately, and the Tokyo metro area has 35 million people living in it.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#44

Post by Farradfahren »

What i never understood is- all those taxes you dont pay- they come back, often amplified? You dont pay for social services, and instead have to pay horrendous sums for private security, gated communities and private police who keeps the campus of your workplace safe. You dont pay for flat health care, and are milked to the bone with every accident. It looks so utterly self defeating from a distance. Why would somebody who wants to pay so little, pay so much for the same thing? Its really bizarr.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#45

Post by somethoughts »

cperciva wrote: post #24

I'd be interested to see how this graph looks if the USA were replaced by data points for each of the states. The USA is unusually big as countries go, and that will tend to increase the dispersion. (Or conversely: Replace all the European countries with a single EU data point -- you'll probably see an even smaller "middle class" for the EU than for the USA.)

Here it is from a GDP perspective: http://www.aei.org/publication/putting-americas-enormous-19-...

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#46

Post by the_economist »

ixtli wrote: post #4

My intuition about this as someone who grew up in America and has traveled internationally quite a bit is that nowhere else on earth are the middle classes so convinced that one day they will be "millionaires" than here. This causes them to act against their own best interests. (This was observed by Engels long ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness )

They aren't completely wrong.

76% of Americans spend a year of their life in the top 20%, 56% in the top 10%.

https://www.aei.org/publication/evidence-shows-significant-i...

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#47

Post by seizethecheese »

yardie wrote: post #32

In all my travels no one is more deluded about the middle class than in the US. Healthcare is cheaper in Europe therefore it must be worse, somehow. The government is completely dysfunctional and we are worse off for it. Rather than pay slightly more to fully fund a working city/state/federal government everyone would rather pay slightly less and have a government that can't work at all. Then, complain about the fact…

It’s generally not a good habit of mind to consider someone with a different political view deluded. The issues you raise are subjective.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#48

Post by willvarfar »

This reminds me of a TEDx talk titled "Where in the world is it easiest to get rich?"

Spoiler: Scandinavia, which happens to be top-right in this chart too.

That talk has been discussed on HN before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14542391

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#49

Post by byoung2 »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #8

I have a real, honest to goodness question. I live in the Bay Area. I make $200,000 a year. I just had a mini-exit where I netted about $300K after taxes. I still rent for $2700/month. I don't want to buy an overpriced home in the bay in the suburbs (I wish we had for-sale condos like Toronto everywhere... still don't know why) I do well. I'm 32. I'm on an upwards path. But I don't feel upper class. I feel middle cla…

There are many definitions of middle class. You are using a definition that defines middle class as the desire for what our parents had. It seems like it was easier for them than it is for us...back then you could work for the post office and have a house in the suburbs, 2 kids, and take vacations to Orlando every year.

Now you need to be top 5% just to afford rent in some places (average rent in my city is $2371 and using the standard 30% of gross you need $94,840 annually, putting you in the top 5% nationwide).

My wife and I are "killing it" but we didn't feel that way until we made $300k combined here in Los Angeles.

Re: Rich countries tend to have a bigger middle-class, except the USA

#50

Post by dragonwriter »

I don't really like calling 75% to 200% of median income “middle class”, both because it's not really capturing an economic class distinction and because proportional symmetry suggests 50%-200% or 75%-133% would be properly centered middle income segments.

But that doesn't change that it's interesting how much the US is an outlier in terms of the aggregate performance vs. distribution measure used.

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