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JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

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Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#121

Post by reallymental »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #112
skohan wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we need to be more precise about what exactly is spooking us and why. What's spooking me is the normalization of facial recognition technology for identification without adequate public agreement over what the limits of its applications should be. A machine recognizing me is a lot different than a human recognizing me. If a machine can recognize me, there can be cameras posted at every street corner, and so…

So it's still not the problem that a machine can recognize you, but rather that somebody is tracking and storing such recognitions. Which is an entirely different thing. The former is a technological reality. It's impossible to legislate away devices who can do that. Tracking and storing personal data on the other hand, is very much within the reach of regulation. The GDPR for example restricts this. Even if somebody…

The machine recognizing you was the harder problem. That's the "Minority Report" stuff that people thought was in the _far far_ future that we don't have to worry about constantly.

Storing and using that model across various devices is trivial. So if we've done the hard part, the easy part is _definitely_ going to be done. There's no doubt about that.

States, companies that can convince the state that they somehow need the data (cough insurance companies) will, I repeat, WILL utilize it. And now, suddenly your premiums for this month have gone up cause in that ski trip you took last weekend, a camera noticed the lack of headgear for about 5 mins. That's the kind of risk the insurance company cannot take. Pay up.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#122

Post by tareqak »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #115
tareqak wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the system makes a mistake? There is another article currently on the front page that is just the sort of mistake that some people fear could end up much, much worse[0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19726528

In the case of the boarding situation, there are too worst-case scenarios: One being the system doesn't recognize a valid passenger, then he does have to show his boarding pass or another passport. Worse would be accepting someone who isn't allowed to board, but such things are easily mitigated. The potential to be mistaken for a wanted criminal has always been real. Facial recognition may even be more accurate overa…

The secondary issue with the story I linked was that there was an incorrect match that was made using details of the plaintiff obtained from a stolen ID and the plaintiff’s face. The primary issue was that the plaintiff had no idea that Apple’s Face ID was being used to help law enforcement with thefts at Apple Stores. The plaintiff had no idea that this was the case (it’s even news to me). It’s this sort of surreptitious sharing of images in facial recognition programs that’s worrying: a user might not know a priori because the details are buried in the terms of service that isn’t in plain language.

What if this information is used to blacklist people who take advantage of hidden city flights using sites like skiplagged? You start off blacklisted by one airline, but they might have a database-sharing deal amongst them that’s presented to the user in TOS saying that it is a “cost-saving, fraud prevention program”.

What if different carriers of different kinds of transportation start sharing the same database and synchronize in minutes? You might show up at the airport, get denied boarding for your flight for a reason you know how to fix, but then your Uber app denies you a ride because your face now matches their updated passenger blacklist database?

Yes, these last two examples are contrived, but the technology is clearly there to hook it all up. Do we now need a to visit the local police station or some kind of PII credit bureau just to ensure that our record is clean and our identity has not been stolen?

The EU government is already combining the biometric databases of its member states as seen here [0], so this sharing is starting to take place more openly.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19717808

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#123

Post by chungleong »

skohan wrote: post #110
chungleong wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "most European capitals", I presume you're excluding Paris :-)

I haven’t flown into Paris recently but there are plenty of exceptions: Berlin’s not beautiful either (though it’s one of my favorite airports). But still the standard in Europe seems higher in general than North America.

Budget airlines in Europe often fly to airports in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, they might be more recently built.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#124

Post by vultour »

apexalpha wrote: post #95
ElliotH wrote: post #87

I tried this. It’s junk. So much slower than a boarding pass scan. I’ve seen good setups for this like at the UK border. This is not the same. Almost everyone got rejected and got looked at by staff, especially black people who the machine seemed incapable of recognizing. Children? No chance. I get it, there are privacy concerns which should rank higher, but you don’t even need to pull them out here. This is just use…

>I’ve seen good setups for this like at the UK border. This is not the same. I was just going to say I've done this in the UK. You put your passport on a scanner and look into the camera, took a full 5 seconds though, but since there are many more of these than border guards it's still faster.

Those don't use facial recognition, it's a bunch of border guards behind a wall manually evaluating if you match the data on the passport.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#125

Post by j16sdiz »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #101

I have to admit my naivety on this, but: What exactly is the problem here? Both the airlines and the involved law enforcement have a right or even a duty to know who you are when you are boarding the plane. They also have facial recognition data, either from a passport photo or putting a camera in front of the check-in, and arguably they have a right to that. People walk around with their faces all the time. They pos…

What if it goes wrong?

We know facial recognition is not that fair.

Makeups and hairstyle sometimes affect the result..

It is particular bad for dark skin color: Part of it is poor training data set. Another part of the problem is lower contrast in photo (need better lighting / extra infra-red channel).

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#126

Post by 6nf »

stedaniels wrote: post #56
6nf wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False positives is not a big deal, if two people check in under the same name it's easy to manually figure it out

I imagine the OP meant a nefarious third party using someone else's boarding pass?

Is this not currently a problem too?

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#127

Post by skohan »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #112
skohan wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we need to be more precise about what exactly is spooking us and why. What's spooking me is the normalization of facial recognition technology for identification without adequate public agreement over what the limits of its applications should be. A machine recognizing me is a lot different than a human recognizing me. If a machine can recognize me, there can be cameras posted at every street corner, and so…

So it's still not the problem that a machine can recognize you, but rather that somebody is tracking and storing such recognitions. Which is an entirely different thing. The former is a technological reality. It's impossible to legislate away devices who can do that. Tracking and storing personal data on the other hand, is very much within the reach of regulation. The GDPR for example restricts this. Even if somebody…

Why do you insist that facial recognition technology could not be regulated? It's possible for anyone to go to a garden supply store and find the ingredients to make home made explosives. In principal we can't stop people from doing so, but that doesn't mean we can't make it illegal and impose penalties on anyone who does it. It's a technological reality that I can watch videos on my phone while driving, but we can still make it illegal to do so.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#128

Post by swalsh »

In the us, we've successfully avoided a gun registry (with the exception of a few states) probably because gun ownership has such a direct connection with the idea of a potential tyrannical government. But these types of systems are going to be the true backbone of a tyrannical government. The gun community has successfully built a lobby organization to maintain these freedoms (I'd argue mostly through peer pressure.) Perhaps there's a model here that privacy advocates can replicate.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#129

Post by oedmarap »

oceliker wrote: post #5

I think this is being blown a bit out of proportion. The government definitely has your passport photo in a database. And since this facial recognition is happening only at boarding gates of international flights, it’s totally plausible that CBP has an isolated system, where Jetblue operates the device but doesn’t get any of the data.

I agree with you on this. Also, from the article:

> "Once you take that high-quality photograph, why not run it against the FBI database? Why not run it against state databases of people with outstanding warrants?"

I actually have no issue here. I would love it if law enforcement is aided in doing their job. I really don't want someone evading arrest for a recent violent crime or a person on the FBI's wanted list trying to board an aircraft with other passengers and succeeding.

My issue is transparency on the data governance, security, and data residency of the entire system viz. where it's stored, who has access, and how is it accessed.

OK equates to only the government having the database, secure access done remotely via API by the airline at check-in and boarding, a human present to verify any anomalies with the facial recognition & records access, and the boarding pass/ID/PP being used as a second factor if necessary.

NOT OK equates to a private company running a central database, local copies of any database being stored by any airline, having facial recognition as the only option available, and having the data shared with any entity other than law enforcement.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#130

Post by [deleted] »

skohan wrote: post #113
Klonoar wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most states will offer a form, it seems, or people will just use their passport. I do the latter and will just continue to do so. shrug

Even getting a passport in the states is a pain though. Getting an European passport felt like a well-organized formality, while even as a native born citizen getting my US passport felt almost adversarial.

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