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JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

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Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#111

Post by skohan »

alkonaut wrote: post #99
skohan wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I think there's a ton of potential benefit for facial recognition in terms of streamlining processes which require a lot of ID checks, like air travel, but I would only be OK with it if they implemented it within some parameters which should be enforced with regulation: - The identification step should be completely anonymized. I.e. the facial recognition step is completely black-box. When I buy my ticket, I subm…

I don't think the big issue is the identity change between ticket purchase and checkin, but between checkin and boarding. I.e. no photo is needed when buying ticket. At the checkin step you show your face. When boarding you verify it. Otherwise, I agree with what you said. This type of biometric check of "the person dropping the bag is the person boarding" has been in use for more than a decade e.g. on Scandinavian,…

Somehow I would trust Scandinavians to handle this better than, say, the US or the UK. Those societies seem to have a better ethic around the public good than others.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#112

Post by bayesian_horse »

skohan wrote: post #106
bayesian_horse wrote: post #101

I have to admit my naivety on this, but: What exactly is the problem here? Both the airlines and the involved law enforcement have a right or even a duty to know who you are when you are boarding the plane. They also have facial recognition data, either from a passport photo or putting a camera in front of the check-in, and arguably they have a right to that. People walk around with their faces all the time. They pos…

> I think we need to be more precise about what exactly is spooking us and why. What's spooking me is the normalization of facial recognition technology for identification without adequate public agreement over what the limits of its applications should be. A machine recognizing me is a lot different than a human recognizing me. If a machine can recognize me, there can be cameras posted at every street corner, and so…

So it's still not the problem that a machine can recognize you, but rather that somebody is tracking and storing such recognitions.

Which is an entirely different thing. The former is a technological reality. It's impossible to legislate away devices who can do that.

Tracking and storing personal data on the other hand, is very much within the reach of regulation. The GDPR for example restricts this. Even if somebody has devices who can recognize you is not allowed to store and track data about such recognition incidences without your approval. In this particular case, they don't need your approval because the camera is used in lieu of a boarding pass, and the airline has every right and duty to know you are boarding right now.

In case you are worried that the airline connects your travel patterns with other companies interested in other patterns, well, that works with a boarding pass or even a simple check mark on a pen-on-paper boarding list just fine.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#113

Post by skohan »

Klonoar wrote: post #65
ultrarunner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’ve given up so much freedom Arguably it's merely been taken from us. There are plenty of who object, and the TSA is wildly unpopular. That makes little difference to the fact that the pace continues ever further. I don't mean to be defeatist, but I don't think a sternly worded letter has ever made much of a difference, and probably won't in the future. The only caveat is that when REAL ID takes effect and entire…

Most states will offer a form, it seems, or people will just use their passport. I do the latter and will just continue to do so. shrug

Even getting a passport in the states is a pain though. Getting an European passport felt like a well-organized formality, while even as a native born citizen getting my US passport felt almost adversarial.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#114

Post by CPLX »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #101

I have to admit my naivety on this, but: What exactly is the problem here? Both the airlines and the involved law enforcement have a right or even a duty to know who you are when you are boarding the plane. They also have facial recognition data, either from a passport photo or putting a camera in front of the check-in, and arguably they have a right to that. People walk around with their faces all the time. They pos…

Quantity has a quality all its own, as they say.

If you live in a town and there’s a couple security guards or even cops that can recognize you, that’s pretty normal.

If there were thousands of private security guards as well as cops hired by the government stationed all around you, in every part of your life, gazing at you from every corner, and they had all been trained to recognize you, and every time you walked by one they whipped out a notepad and took detailed notes on what you were doing, you’d freak the fuck out, justifiably.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#115

Post by bayesian_horse »

tareqak wrote: post #109
bayesian_horse wrote: post #101

I have to admit my naivety on this, but: What exactly is the problem here? Both the airlines and the involved law enforcement have a right or even a duty to know who you are when you are boarding the plane. They also have facial recognition data, either from a passport photo or putting a camera in front of the check-in, and arguably they have a right to that. People walk around with their faces all the time. They pos…

What if the system makes a mistake? There is another article currently on the front page that is just the sort of mistake that some people fear could end up much, much worse[0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19726528

In the case of the boarding situation, there are too worst-case scenarios: One being the system doesn't recognize a valid passenger, then he does have to show his boarding pass or another passport.

Worse would be accepting someone who isn't allowed to board, but such things are easily mitigated.

The potential to be mistaken for a wanted criminal has always been real. Facial recognition may even be more accurate overall in that regard. But it's nothing new. Drug sniffing dogs have false alarms all the time, some even cheat intentionally. And police officers better not shoot someone on sight when they recognize them from a mugshot.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#116

Post by notahacker »

Zarath wrote: post #30
mch82 wrote: post #16

How much longer will we allow our freedoms to be eroded? People were flying without any photo ID until just a few years ago (except internationally). We’ve given up so much freedom & so much of what made air travel fun in exchange for so little. We need to stop letting people scare us into giving away our freedoms.

People in the west need to get over their phobia of violence. Until there is mass destruction of property (security cameras), or riots, or violence against politicians, nothing is going to change. Maybe I just have less faith in the system than other people, but I believe that any system will be successfully gamed after a certain number of years and that's what we have on our hands. I have very little faith in the ab…

Because violent upheaval has such a fantastic history of consistently returning liberal governments that are not at all interested in security measures?

Going to go out on a limb and say that preferring to be biometrically screened at an airport than incarcerated or dead isn't an irrational phobia of the latter either...

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#117

Post by lm28469 »

mch82 wrote: post #16

How much longer will we allow our freedoms to be eroded? People were flying without any photo ID until just a few years ago (except internationally). We’ve given up so much freedom & so much of what made air travel fun in exchange for so little. We need to stop letting people scare us into giving away our freedoms.

You could fly with guns and smoke cigs in planes in the 50s-60s, that was true freedom, right ?

Planes were hijacked all the time, and back then they weren't nearly as many planes as now. [0]

> so much of what made air travel fun

It's not supposed to be "fun", flying isn't a right, it's a privilege that enabled mass tourism which is an ecological and cultural plague. People take easyjet/ryanair like they take their cars to go grocery shopping, Berlin, Paris, Rome, &c. are now hell on earth.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#118

Post by ben_w »

skohan wrote: post #110
chungleong wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "most European capitals", I presume you're excluding Paris :-)

I haven’t flown into Paris recently but there are plenty of exceptions: Berlin’s not beautiful either (though it’s one of my favorite airports). But still the standard in Europe seems higher in general than North America.

I like Berlin Tegel, but Berlin Schönefeld always seemed to me to be its low-budget brother.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#119

Post by bayesian_horse »

CPLX wrote: post #114
bayesian_horse wrote: post #101

I have to admit my naivety on this, but: What exactly is the problem here? Both the airlines and the involved law enforcement have a right or even a duty to know who you are when you are boarding the plane. They also have facial recognition data, either from a passport photo or putting a camera in front of the check-in, and arguably they have a right to that. People walk around with their faces all the time. They pos…

Quantity has a quality all its own, as they say. If you live in a town and there’s a couple security guards or even cops that can recognize you, that’s pretty normal. If there were thousands of private security guards as well as cops hired by the government stationed all around you, in every part of your life, gazing at you from every corner, and they had all been trained to recognize you, and every time you walked b…

And you'd justifiably tell them to not do it...

And if you are not able to stop them from doing that, may I suggest you have a bigger problem with your government or the security guards than being tracked by them?

Again: Tracking personal data is regulateable, facial recognition technology is not.

And the mere act of checking the identity of a person for legitimate access control purposes is no unreasonable infringement on privacy.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#120

Post by ben_w »

keiferski wrote: post #104
ben_w wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymity? They get their own Wikipedia pages and personalised conspiracy theories. Even “mere” multimillionaires like my first boss after graduating got that plus endless personal fan letters.

Anonymity is not the same as privacy. Mark Zuckerberg is known worldwide and has no ability to be anonymous. However aspects of his private life (his Facebook messages, for example) are far more private than the average person.

Zuckerberg’s password in June 2016 was “dadada”. That’s about as successful an attempt at privacy as the average person :)
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