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JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

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Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#91

Post by photonios »

skohan wrote: post #80
thoughtfunction wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many years, I remember needed a piece of photo id with my ticket to get through TSA security checkpoints. What were you able to do instead? Just give a ticket?

In Europe I routinely fly without being ID'd. I just present my mobile boarding pass to the scanner, and go through security. Anyone with my phone would be able to get on board. It's not 100% ID-free though: AFAIK they are permitted to check ID, and they do it randomly.

I am assuming you're flying within the schengen zone.

Can I ask what countries you fly in? I fly frequently within the European Union and I am a EU citizen. However, even for flights between the Netherlands and Germany I have to enter my ID details during check-in and it's checked multiple times throughout the trip.

It's not just random checks, but it seems mandatory. When you drop off the luggage they ask for your ticket + ID. When you board the plane, they again ask for your boarding pass + ID. The exception is large, modern airports such as Munich where you simply scan your boarding pass when boarding the plane.

How do you do this? Do you just refuse?

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#92

Post by markdown »

duckface wrote: post #88

can someone please explain calmly why the fear-mongering, the hysteria and use of the words terrify are justified about this?

Read this twitter conversation between a passenger and Jetblue: https://twitter.com/mackenzief/status/1118509708673998848

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#93

Post by dragonwriter »

swarnie_ wrote: post #85
mch82 wrote: post #16

How much longer will we allow our freedoms to be eroded? People were flying without any photo ID until just a few years ago (except internationally). We’ve given up so much freedom & so much of what made air travel fun in exchange for so little. We need to stop letting people scare us into giving away our freedoms.

> People were flying without any photo ID until just a few years ago And how well did that end up? Remember "back in the good old days" when 30+ highjackings a year was normal?

> > People were flying without any photo ID until just a few years ago

> And how well did that end up?

With no more serious problems than have been seen under the new regime over a much longer period than the new regime has been in place.

> Remember "back in the good old days" when 30+ highjackings a year was normal?

Well, no, not literally, because I'm under 50. But I do remember the much lighter than the current regime security checks that were put into place which ended that, and reduced the base rate of security incidents so low that it's nearly impossible to detect whether the much more intrusive current measures have any added effect.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#94

Post by duckface »

ehnto wrote: post #31
cocochanel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please elaborate on the downsides? Gov't has your data since you were born, complete with your photos, IDs, you name it. What makes you think it's any different now?

The difference is that ubiquitous facial recognition allows for near seamless tracking of individuals and explicitly without a warrant or their consent. It's an important milestone because it moves us from a "reasonable book keeping" level of tracking to full blown seamless tracking and again importantly, without our consent. To imagine it a bit more viscerally, imagine instead that the system had no cameras and inst…

you people are pretty stupid. ATMs have tracking, point of point of sale has tracking, your phone, internet it's all tracked and linked back to you.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#95

Post by apexalpha »

ElliotH wrote: post #87

I tried this. It’s junk. So much slower than a boarding pass scan. I’ve seen good setups for this like at the UK border. This is not the same. Almost everyone got rejected and got looked at by staff, especially black people who the machine seemed incapable of recognizing. Children? No chance. I get it, there are privacy concerns which should rank higher, but you don’t even need to pull them out here. This is just use…

>I’ve seen good setups for this like at the UK border. This is not the same.

I was just going to say I've done this in the UK. You put your passport on a scanner and look into the camera, took a full 5 seconds though, but since there are many more of these than border guards it's still faster.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#96

Post by skohan »

alkonaut wrote: post #38

If a private company says they'll take a picture of me at checkin and then verify that at boarding vs the same picture - then destroy the picture, I'm fine with that. It's a temporary storage of biometric data. I'm especially fine with it if I can opt to go for a paper passport instead. BUT If a private company uses some database, especially a centralized/government database, to do the same task - then it's absolutel…

Yes I think there's a ton of potential benefit for facial recognition in terms of streamlining processes which require a lot of ID checks, like air travel, but I would only be OK with it if they implemented it within some parameters which should be enforced with regulation:

- The identification step should be completely anonymized. I.e. the facial recognition step is completely black-box. When I buy my ticket, I submit a photo, and a token is produced which is shared with the airline, and they can compare this token with one which is produced when I show my face at checkin. Like with password storage, even if the facial recognition dataset were somehow compromised, it should not give attackers a way to link my face with my identity. And it should not be possible to type in my name and get to pictures of my face.

- The dataset used to identify me should have a finite lifetime (i.e. from when I check in until the plane takes off) and should be verifiably destroyed afterwards.

- It should be possible to possible to opt-out and identify myself by other means.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#97

Post by alkonaut »

alkonaut wrote: post #38

If a private company says they'll take a picture of me at checkin and then verify that at boarding vs the same picture - then destroy the picture, I'm fine with that. It's a temporary storage of biometric data. I'm especially fine with it if I can opt to go for a paper passport instead. BUT If a private company uses some database, especially a centralized/government database, to do the same task - then it's absolutel…

I meant paper boarding pass of course.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#98

Post by alkonaut »

jacquesm wrote: post #51
alkonaut wrote: post #38

If a private company says they'll take a picture of me at checkin and then verify that at boarding vs the same picture - then destroy the picture, I'm fine with that. It's a temporary storage of biometric data. I'm especially fine with it if I can opt to go for a paper passport instead. BUT If a private company uses some database, especially a centralized/government database, to do the same task - then it's absolutel…

What do you think are the chances that any of this data is actually destroyed?

I think zero because as far as I understand this data is actually the second type - i.e. they aren't aquiring this data themselves, they are given access to the authorities' database.

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#99

Post by alkonaut »

skohan wrote: post #96
alkonaut wrote: post #38

If a private company says they'll take a picture of me at checkin and then verify that at boarding vs the same picture - then destroy the picture, I'm fine with that. It's a temporary storage of biometric data. I'm especially fine with it if I can opt to go for a paper passport instead. BUT If a private company uses some database, especially a centralized/government database, to do the same task - then it's absolutel…

Yes I think there's a ton of potential benefit for facial recognition in terms of streamlining processes which require a lot of ID checks, like air travel, but I would only be OK with it if they implemented it within some parameters which should be enforced with regulation: - The identification step should be completely anonymized. I.e. the facial recognition step is completely black-box. When I buy my ticket, I subm…

I don't think the big issue is the identity change between ticket purchase and checkin, but between checkin and boarding. I.e. no photo is needed when buying ticket. At the checkin step you show your face. When boarding you verify it. Otherwise, I agree with what you said.

This type of biometric check of "the person dropping the bag is the person boarding" has been in use for more than a decade e.g. on Scandinavian, and I think it's basically fine if they use temporary and secure data storage.

The biometric verification didn't take place at all if you didn't check in a bag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines#Fingerpr...

Re: JetBlue has started using facial recognition instead of boarding passes

#100

Post by skohan »

photonios wrote: post #91
skohan wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe I routinely fly without being ID'd. I just present my mobile boarding pass to the scanner, and go through security. Anyone with my phone would be able to get on board. It's not 100% ID-free though: AFAIK they are permitted to check ID, and they do it randomly.

I am assuming you're flying within the schengen zone. Can I ask what countries you fly in? I fly frequently within the European Union and I am a EU citizen. However, even for flights between the Netherlands and Germany I have to enter my ID details during check-in and it's checked multiple times throughout the trip. It's not just random checks, but it seems mandatory. When you drop off the luggage they ask for your t…

Maybe this is not general: I am mostly speaking about commuter flights within Germany. Typically I am flying without checked bags and I go straight to security.

I have definitely also flown from Germany to Italy and back without ever showing ID. I can also recall flying from Germany to Shiphol without ID, but I can't recall whether I was controlled on the return flight.

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