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TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

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Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#171

Post by behringer »

godelski wrote: post #169
turc1656 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? I can see the case for a complex code for business taxes since there are many different industries that have different rules. But personal returns should never, ever have such complicated rules. And that doesn't m…

> Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? My response is: >Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why are we even having to file our own taxes? The IRS already checks everything. They have all the information that you enter into these systems (in fact, turbo tax has frequently had my W2 befo…

There's something to be said for making sure the government is doing it accurately. I bet there's a lot of people for whom the IRS is wrong about. Also, if you have other income with no W2 it needs to be reported.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#172

Post by JudgeWapner »

anilshanbhag wrote: post #55
untog wrote: post #11

They're not perfect, but I've had success filing with FreeTaxUSA - federal is free, state is $15: https://www.freetaxusa.com/ Obviously too late for people this year, and my tax situation is relatively straightforward so I can't speak to how well it handles edge cases, but the first year I used it I went through the process with both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA and got the exact same estimated refund. The last straw with…

I was seriously considering running ads for FreeTaxUSA out of disgust for TurboTax, it is sad that information flows so slowly through the world :/

it can have unexpected benefits too, however. All it takes is one viral movement, like #fuckTurboTax and simple guides to file free (with specific detours around the dark patterns) could spread nationwide in a single afternoon. It's just a matter of capturing enough peoples' attention.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#173

Post by akarma »

godelski wrote: post #169
turc1656 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? I can see the case for a complex code for business taxes since there are many different industries that have different rules. But personal returns should never, ever have such complicated rules. And that doesn't m…

> Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? My response is: >Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why are we even having to file our own taxes? The IRS already checks everything. They have all the information that you enter into these systems (in fact, turbo tax has frequently had my W2 befo…

Stolen from Twitter [1]:

"Government: You owe us money. It’s called taxes.

Me: How much do I owe?

Gov’t: You have to figure that out.

Me: I just pay what I want?

Gov’t: Oh, no we know exactly how much you owe. But you have to guess that number too.

Me: What if I get it wrong?

Gov’t: You go to prison"

[1] https://twitter.com/jordan_stratton/status/11181414550616719...

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#174

Post by failrate »

Regardless of whether Intuit is willfully or accidentally using dark patterns to get paying customers, their incentives completely explain how they ended up with such a complete garbage endpoint.

Of course, that is being very generous, because they are also directly influencing the policy makers that establish the incentive structures for Intuit.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#175

Post by godelski »

behringer wrote: post #171
godelski wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? My response is: >Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why are we even having to file our own taxes? The IRS already checks everything. They have all the information that you enter into these systems (in fact, turbo tax has frequently had my W2 befo…

There's something to be said for making sure the government is doing it accurately. I bet there's a lot of people for whom the IRS is wrong about. Also, if you have other income with no W2 it needs to be reported.

> There's something to be said for making sure the government is doing it accurately.

>> Let the IRS do it, they send you a copy and you send it back either as is or with modifications.

That's why you check it.

And to respond to a possible next question, do we trust TurboTax (or others) more?

> Also, if you have other income with no W2 it needs to be reported.

All those other forms that are handed to you are ALSO already handed to the IRS. For example the 1099. The W2 was an easily verifiable example of how they already have this information before you receive it. The gov already has copies of all those forms. So really as tax payers we're paying for the IRS to do our taxes and we're paying for companies like TurboTax to do it as well (assuming you don't do it yourself)

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#177

Post by godelski »

akarma wrote: post #173
godelski wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? My response is: >Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why are we even having to file our own taxes? The IRS already checks everything. They have all the information that you enter into these systems (in fact, turbo tax has frequently had my W2 befo…

Stolen from Twitter [1]: "Government: You owe us money. It’s called taxes. Me: How much do I owe? Gov’t: You have to figure that out. Me: I just pay what I want? Gov’t: Oh, no we know exactly how much you owe. But you have to guess that number too. Me: What if I get it wrong? Gov’t: You go to prison" [1] https://twitter.com/jordan_stratton/status/11181414550616719...

I'm very happy this sentiment is becoming more common. It is just insane when you think about it.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#178

Post by conanbatt »

thfuran wrote: post #168
conanbatt wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if I'm not using them?

You're not using or deriving benefit from the existence of roads, schools, the EPA, or the FDA?

Most I don't. And many of them work against me as well.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#179

Post by gmiller123456 »

turc1656 wrote: post #104
wool_gather wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What complicated rules? The basic 1040 is perfectly straightforward, even if you have a few sources of income or special deductions/credits.

If you do it quick and dirty, then yeah. But I am pretty sure most people would find even the 1040 a bit intimidating. The problem is that the tax code is more than 75,000 pages long. No one knows all of it and there are parts that are up to interpretation and self-categorization. If you want to basically ignore all that (legally) you can go the quick and dirty way and just take the standard deductions and exemptions…

For the overwhelming majority of people, the standard deduction will be way more than an itemized version. It sounds like your accountant went through and found some deductions/exemptions in the overly complicated tax code that wouldn't exist in a simplified tax code, so you would have paid more. That is, unless your version of "simplified" means "only those parts that benefit you".

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#180

Post by arthurdenture »

untog wrote: post #11

They're not perfect, but I've had success filing with FreeTaxUSA - federal is free, state is $15: https://www.freetaxusa.com/ Obviously too late for people this year, and my tax situation is relatively straightforward so I can't speak to how well it handles edge cases, but the first year I used it I went through the process with both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA and got the exact same estimated refund. The last straw with…

+1 to freetaxusa. I started using them a decade ago when I first had to file taxes, and I've been pleasantly surprised that they have remained a good choice this whole time. The product doesn't even feel like it has changed much (other than the never-ending tax law changes) over the years, which is a rarity for web-based products. It just does what it needs to do.
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