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TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

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111–120 of 283 posts

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#111
post #42

Hey, just an FYI. You never have to pay to file taxes. Like the forms are free on IRS.gov. You can fill in the information and mail it in with any money you owe too. There are help guides that step your through the process of filling out the forms as well, like worksheets to calculate deductibles if you need it. It's very important that you go to IRS.gov and look at your options before you ever pay someone to do your…

Several years ago I tried following this advice, and inadvertantly double-reported some income. This was after attempting to read all the relevant instructions and forms. I then spent dozens (multiple) of hours trying to clean up the mess. There probably would have been a more efficient way of doing it, but that's kind of the point. Professionals know their way around the system and understand the vocabulary.

I have no doubt that it's technically possible for anyone to do their own taxes. But if you're inexperienced, it's fraught with peril. And my situation was one that most people would call pretty simple.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#112
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because corporations are just groups of people operating as one legal entity as is required for many ventures which would be too expensive or risky for one person to take on by themselves. Do you think corporations like the New York Times should not have freedom of speech? Do you think the government should be able to arbitrary power against corporations like Planned Parenthood? Should governments have arbitrary powe…

You are making a straw man argument. No one is saying "corporations should have no rights of advocating and the state to have unchecked and arbitrary power over all of them." The idea is, should corporations have all the same free speech rights as individuals, or can we limit them? I can think of at least one reason why maybe we should limit them: accountability. If I yell fire in a crowded theater I can be charged w…

Your argument seems to be that "since some speech can be prohibited, it isn't correct that corporations have absolute free speech rights."

That's absolutely true. Neither a corporation nor an individual can engage in libel, some types of obscenity, true threats, etc. Furthermore, there are indeed cases where corporate entities are treated differently than individuals, and no one seriously argues that it's inappropriate to do so (there's no corporate right to bear arms, for instance, and corporations don't cast votes in elections). On the other hand, there are obviously very important situations where a corporation must be treated as a legal "person" (to sue and be sued, to own property, etc.)

The crux of the argument that won in Citizen's United is that, among all types of speech, it's political speech that must be jealously protected. Even though there are serious arguments against allowing corporations to participate in campaign-related speech, it was found that there was not enough of a compelling government interest to overcome the strict constitutional scrutiny that is required when the government seeks to limit political participation. As corporations are just groups of people who form an entity to pool resources and share in ownership, those groups of people do not lose their rights because they pick one social and legal structure over another (for instance, a school, non-profit, or a church). The important example was of a corporate entity producing a video that was critical of Hillary Clinton within some amount of time before an election.

The "you cannot yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" argument makes it seem as if others are denying that the government can regulate any speech, but that is not true, people understand the current state of the law.

I think I can rephrase your argument as: "I cannot shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, so obviously some speech can be prohibited. Therefore, since we're only talking about where to draw the line, it can be drawn over here where I'm advocating it be drawn." This ignores distinctions between situations that have been acknowledged for a long time. You cannot shout "fire" (falsely) in a crowded theater because it would be illegal to say something false when you know it is likely to cause immediate harm. It is also illegal to do other things that are kinda-sort-of free speech related if you look at them the right way -- you can't lie for financial gain, you can't lie to obstruct an investigation, you can't lie under oath, you can't file a false police report, etc. etc. Because these are all true, it doesn't mean that in a different situation speech can necessarily be regulated because we've already crossed the line out of absolutism and into situationally-dependent regulation.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#113
post #57
post #45

H&R Block try to get you to pay at every other page while you are filling your return... But I still went with them because the last 2 years I filled the forms online at a couple different companies and H&R Block was getting me more back.

Your taxes should come out the same no matter where you fill them out. If you get different numbers between services, you're missing something on one of them.

I know that but I have very simple taxes and was too lazy to lookup the difference... it just appears that H&R Block's defaults are better.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Intuit definitely feeds Congress some money in support of their corporate goals, the lack of free tax filing is probably more Grover Norquist's fault. He strongly opposes anything that would make paying taxes easier, and he has a lot more influence than Intuit.

Norquist is just twisted, sabotaging the government to convince people that it doesn't work. It would cost the IRS almost nothing to send out pre-filled forms, and giving them enough money to audit the wealthy (i.e. ensure they aren't cheating) would more than pay for itself.

While I think the IRS should do this, it would require a lot of additional work and resources, as well as a reshuffling of filing deadlines throughout the system. The IRS currently does not have all the information it needs to prefill forms, and inly has the resources to review a fraction of the 140M+ returns filed each year.

I don't know why so many people in this site seem to think this is a trivial thing for the IRS. 100% review after the fact isn't even feasible right now, let alone having the information in January.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#115
When I was young my mom would go into H&R Block to do her taxes. She was a single parent raising 2 kids on minimum wage income. She wasn’t tax savvy at all and English was a 2nd language. I recall her paying $89 at the time. I always found it odd that someone as poor as her had to pay money to file taxes. I was too young to say anything at the time. So much for free tax preparation. I wonder how many millions of Americans and for how many decades have been ripped off by these scumbags.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#116
post #42

Hey, just an FYI. You never have to pay to file taxes. Like the forms are free on IRS.gov. You can fill in the information and mail it in with any money you owe too. There are help guides that step your through the process of filling out the forms as well, like worksheets to calculate deductibles if you need it. It's very important that you go to IRS.gov and look at your options before you ever pay someone to do your…

FreeTaxUSA offers a service for $15 that saves me 2+ hours of time, and optionally offers to give me a professionally bound return for $10. Recently I paid a small business $20 to wash my car. It probably saved me an hour out of my day. Why is the second business's services more valid than the first? I know how to wash my car, i know how to do my taxes, but I also value my time.

Because the IRS is forbidden from making take less time because of tax prep company lobbying. How much of those two hours are spent giving the IRS the same numbers they already have?

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That restatement is pretty accurate and I would agree with it. And I wasn't saying dishonesty isn't bad. I was saying the implication the article makes that they are dishonest is something I disagree with. So "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest" is indeed what I'm saying - you are correct in that. I generally don't view dark patterns as dishonest. I think that's where you really took issue. I find the…

Aren't your examples an admission that dark patterns are dishonest, though? It's not like these companies are e.g. randomly coloring their buttons and just so happened to pick a misleading one. They're intentionally choosing colors that you associate with the opposite of what you want to do. The entire purpose is to trick you into performing an action you don't want to perform.

That's a fair point and I think it comes down to the word usage - i.e. dishonest vs misleading. I would agree that they are either misleading or intentionally obfuscatory. I would not, however, say that they are dishonest because to me dishonesty means something more like an outright lie or intentional untruth. The fact that a button says "no" but is colored green is indeed intending to trick you, but it does in fact mean "no" when you click it and the appropriate action is then taken by their site/system. Similarly, the unsubscribe link might be hard to find and not colored as a link, but it's there and it works.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could see the logic of the argument "these aren't dark patterns", or (to a lesser extent) "these are dark patterns(and therefore dishonest), but dishonesty isn't bad". I'm having trouble working through your argument "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest". Might a fair restatement of your argument be something like: "Reasonably informed people should know that Intuit is a profit-seeking entity, and sh…

That restatement is pretty accurate and I would agree with it. And I wasn't saying dishonesty isn't bad. I was saying the implication the article makes that they are dishonest is something I disagree with. So "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest" is indeed what I'm saying - you are correct in that. I generally don't view dark patterns as dishonest. I think that's where you really took issue. I find the…

I think the argument "because I wasn't deceived by the deceptive behavior, it isn't dishonest", isn't a great one. Even if you take a really legalistic view, and entirely ignore the ethical implications of this kind of behavior, simply disclaiming any responsibility to the user doesn't necessarily make it so. Fine print only gets you so far.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Intuit definitely feeds Congress some money in support of their corporate goals, the lack of free tax filing is probably more Grover Norquist's fault. He strongly opposes anything that would make paying taxes easier, and he has a lot more influence than Intuit.

Norquist is just twisted, sabotaging the government to convince people that it doesn't work. It would cost the IRS almost nothing to send out pre-filled forms, and giving them enough money to audit the wealthy (i.e. ensure they aren't cheating) would more than pay for itself.

There may be many arguments in favor of having the IRS sending out pre-filled-in tax forms, but this one just isn't true:

> It would cost the IRS almost nothing to send out pre-filled forms

Enhancing the IRS databases to actually plug in the information used on a typical tax return almost certainly would not cost "almost nothing." Back when it existed, less than 20% of people filed a 1040-EZ (the simplest tax form). That means you need something beyond just "plug in the numbers from the W-2" for the vast majority of tax filers. The IRS almost certainly doesn't have all that machinery already. Some of that data, the IRS doesn't have at all. (How many children live with you for purposes of the EITC?)

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#120
post #74
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tradeoff between money/convenience, or money/time. Of course no one NEEDS to pay the $49 for TurboTax. They do it because it is easy. The reason Intuit has been able to make so much money is that no one wants to waste hours poring over verbose IRS instruction publications, which are not trivial for a layperson to fill out correctly.

I quit doing my own by hand because one year I forgot to copy line 13b of form 123a: to line 26d of form 987d... The software does this automatically for me. I generally think software is slower than doing everything by hand ( I use TaxAct, I don't know how turbotax is different) because of all the stupid waits while it asks questions that don't apply (retirement income...).

New Jersey used to have a PDF form with JavaScript that would copy around all the duplicate values automatically. The only annoying thing about it was that it only worked in Adobe Reader. This year they went to a poorly designed plain PDF form that only let you fill in individual digits for each line item, with tabs needed to shift each place value.
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