It's an emotional plea that I can related to, but flag it I must, not HN material.
Hey dude, where's our future?
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Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
That may be true in some portions of the developed world (where I assume you are probably located), but I assure you that areas where resources are tight and there's a high degree of stratification in society, that's just not the case. Look at Africa. Furthermore, the altruism of the first world is not always beneficial for goals of peace. Intruding into other people's wars in the name of peace may in fact worsen the…
Right; I am in the developed world and I do recognize to some degree what is going on in Africa and rural parts of Asia and South America. I think most of the first world's 'intruding into other peoples wars in the name of peace' are generally flat-out lies. We are invading their countries for resources, political gain, or strategically place military bases. So I am with you on that one, I think. However, the rise of…
But there are many problems that information sharing just can't solve. Let's take African village X, imbue the population with a shared desire to break free of their government bondage, and give them a very poor infrastructure. Once they stop celebrating their defeat of the government, they're going to have to face issues such as who gets how much water. These things can't be solved by the Internet, and this is basically my original point about competing for resources.
I'd also take issue with the idea of the middle class being allied to the poor. Doesn't seem to work that way in the U.S., at least.
Don't get me wrong - I wish you were right. A more fair and equal world would undoubtedly be a better place, but I think the probability of that occurring anytime soon is pretty slim. Even if you solve issues like famine, medicine and economic development (which is a pretty gigantic if), something new will take their place as a focal point for competition.
EDIT: We could argue this til the cows come home. I think it just comes down to your optimistic view versus my pessimistic view. Only time will tell who's right.
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#13Any call to 'educate yourself' accompanied by inspirational Che Guevara quotes can't be taken seriously. Look behind the hagiography and there's nothing but a butcher with soundbites and a pretty face.
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#14Hey dude, here's my past: First grade, 1961-1962: We had to learn "duck and cover", in case of surprise nuclear attack by the Soviets. For field trips, we toured our neighbors' underground bomb shelters, which were about as common as home theaters are now. We had to say the Lord's Prayer, whether we wanted to or not. Some of my classmates wore braces, because the polio vaccine didn't quite make it in time for them. W…
"get jobs as good as our father's (we didn't)"
In which way have the jobs of your fathers been better?
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#15Any call to 'educate yourself' accompanied by inspirational Che Guevara quotes can't be taken seriously. Look behind the hagiography and there's nothing but a butcher with soundbites and a pretty face.
Being the OP I have to say I hesitated a bit before adding the quote, which wasn't in the original version of the post. I've done a fair amount of reading on the Cuban revolution, and mostly agree with your assessment of Che. The actual quote reflected my mood at the time of writing though, so I still chose to include it. Disagreeing with someone on a majority of things, does not mean that I can't quote them on the ones where we do, does it?
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right; I am in the developed world and I do recognize to some degree what is going on in Africa and rural parts of Asia and South America. I think most of the first world's 'intruding into other peoples wars in the name of peace' are generally flat-out lies. We are invading their countries for resources, political gain, or strategically place military bases. So I am with you on that one, I think. However, the rise of…
But there are many problems that information sharing just can't solve. Let's take African village X, imbue the population with a shared desire to break free of their government bondage, and give them a very poor infrastructure. Once they stop celebrating their defeat of the government, they're going to have to face issues such as who gets how much water. These things can't be solved by the Internet, and this is basic…
Well let me try and convince you anyway that optimism is the rational view in this case.
I'd also take issue with the idea of the middle class being allied to the poor. Doesn't seem to work that way in the U.S., at least.
Beyond that, the reason I am optimistic is because I perceive a clear trend between sharing of information and 'fairness'. In virtually all cases of inequality, a small percentage of people control, have power over, or exploit a majority of people. The only reason they are able to maintain their regime is that when isolated instances of rebellion start to quell, they are quickly extinguished through force or other manipulation.
Historically, it's organization of these exploited-majorities, including efficient means of internal communication which has led to successful revolutions; and without the internal communication they are bound to remain fragmented, and thus easily extinguished.
The internet has completely changed the game in that regard; the total ramifications have not been seen yet; as the first people to mass adopt the internet were middle class and upwards and used it for what those people do with all their lives, entertainment and work.
However, that's not what poor people do. Not having ever been poorer than an avg broke 20-something; I can't speak directly; but at least in South America I know there is intense power struggles happening between the rich and the poor.
The rich can 'stay on top' the poor due to their power-advantage. They have control of the social structure, and beyond that just generally have capital, more freedom and ability to move and communicate, etc.
However, as the information age progresses, more and more things that used to require capital, or large amounts capital can now be infinitely distributed for free (or nearly free) as software; thus raising the power of the poor.
As the power of the poor, or the lowest classes of society raises, they will be more and more successful.
Beyond that, having an attitude of brotherly love and compassion for all humans is the best 'meta-game' strategy. That is, if life is a game and being altruistic or selfish is a strategy, altruism is going to win in the long run. Players tend to trend toward successful strategies as a game gets played more and more (and results of others success get more and more eyeballs), and thus I have to assume that overtime altruism will become more and more common as a life-strat.
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#17I think as history progresses, the world becomes a more richly complex place; and more opportunities are made available to its inhabitants as a result.
I don't think that people are less worthy, or less 'good', than they were in the past. I do think that our attention has to fight more distractions than ever before.
Maybe it's not surprising that we sometimes lose track of what's truly important.
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#18Any call to 'educate yourself' accompanied by inspirational Che Guevara quotes can't be taken seriously. Look behind the hagiography and there's nothing but a butcher with soundbites and a pretty face.
As citizen428 pointed out, anyone can be right at some point in time (as unlikely as it may be in Che's case). Even a broken watch will tell you the time accurately twice a day.
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#19Hey dude, here's my past: First grade, 1961-1962: We had to learn "duck and cover", in case of surprise nuclear attack by the Soviets. For field trips, we toured our neighbors' underground bomb shelters, which were about as common as home theaters are now. We had to say the Lord's Prayer, whether we wanted to or not. Some of my classmates wore braces, because the polio vaccine didn't quite make it in time for them. W…
"get jobs as good as our father's (we didn't)" In which way have the jobs of your fathers been better?
I'm guessing "good" is relative for many people, but one measure might be the ability for just one person's job (typically a father's) to be able to sustain the family. Many of the people of that person's generation grew up to be two-income families just to keep a similar standard-of-living as their parents, because jobs paid less relative to cost-of-living and offered fewer benefits.
Re: Hey dude, where's our future?
#20World peace is a pretty unrealistic goal at this point. The population of the world has grown too large, concentrated and different (ie, between cultures) for fair apportionment of the resources available to it. Therefor, there will always be competition and strife. The Internet isn't going to change that...
> World peace is a pretty unrealistic goal at this point
Aren't all the worthy ones? We can try or we can give up our ideals and be happy within our homes, with our gadgets and cable channels, driving our cars, going to our restaurants, pretty much doing whatever the world tells us will make us happy.
Would this alone make you happy?