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Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

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Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#101

Post by HillRat »

stcredzero wrote: post #89
iknowordidthat wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why you are injecting the founding of the United States into this. Nobody can possibly weigh every Wehrmacht member’s actions. Those that acted with distinction have been documented. They are the exceptions that prove the rule. If they were not, the outcome of the Wehrmacht’s actions would have been very different. Your criteria is impossible to satisfy, by design. An attempt to rewrite history.

Nobody can possibly weigh every Wehrmacht member’s actions Strawman. Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being. An attempt to rewrite history. False. You are projecting. My words state the opposite of what you suggest. I take it you are invested in the idea that it’s okay to throw away individual rights in some situations and simply punish…

Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being.

Most human beings have not taken up arms to make war on behalf of a genocidal regime led by a fanatical anti-Semitic tyrant. It’s okay to look askance at those who did.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#102

Post by solveit »

HillRat wrote: post #101
stcredzero wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can possibly weigh every Wehrmacht member’s actions Strawman. Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being. An attempt to rewrite history. False. You are projecting. My words state the opposite of what you suggest. I take it you are invested in the idea that it’s okay to throw away individual rights in some situations and simply punish…

Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being. Most human beings have not taken up arms to make war on behalf of a genocidal regime led by a fanatical anti-Semitic tyrant. It’s okay to look askance at those who did.

However, most human beings in their situation did. There but for the grace of god go I.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#103

Post by yifanl »

joe_the_user wrote: post #83
yifanl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(In some views) morals are relative and personal, not absolute.

(In some views) morals are relative and personal, not absolute. But that too is a moral view, is it not? It may be "meta-relative" to other moral views but doesn't keep it from being statement of values.

That's a good counterpoint to relativism, and that's why I accept moral realism, relative morals are self-contradicting (or you can accept that everything is morally right and wrong simultaneously, which is bordering on nihilism)

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#105

Post by anigbrowl »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #95
anigbrowl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see what's 'optimistic' about that. By those numbers, independent-minded people are outnumbered 2:1 by tools. Those numbers are likely way off the mark given both the tiny number and relative homogeneity of subjects in the original study, and the decades that have since passed with all the social and cultural changes. But the fact that so many populist politicians choose to predicate their campaigns on incr…

It's not obvious that it's a binary classification of people into buckets labeled "independent thinker" and "drone / tool". Surely every social person participates in groupthink to some contextually-dependent degree.

It becomes binary when people are ordered to harm someone else and must decide whether or not to obey. I picked the word tool not as an insult but as a descriptor of a person who has allowed themselves to be so instrumentalized.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#106

Post by anigbrowl »

pergadad wrote: post #91
iknowordidthat wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the paper clearly illustrates, there were so few documented cases of refusal that they are negligible when weighing the war crimes of the Wehrmact and its members. Less than one hundred out of millions. Viewing them all as “fungible villains” is a very accurate approximation with a ridiculously low error.

You're shot for refusing orders. In a war situation no one is going to bother recording this. You'll either get a letter home that you were a deserter and died dishonourably, so your widow and kids won't even get a pension, or you'll be lucky and the commander sends back a letter that you were killed in the line of duty or from injury/disease. One way or the other, there will be few situations where such refusal is p…

Better to die with a clear conscience than to murder the innocent. If you were cunning you could take the commanding officer out instead.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#107

Post by mannykannot »

tptacek wrote: post #51
spamizbad wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just not correct. In the original form of the experiment (and several subsequent replications), the “teacher” was under the impression everything was real and wasn’t aware the “learner” (the person pretending to get shocked) was an actor. Today, you’d never get an ethics board to approve the experiment in this form, as several former “teachers” were distraught, after being told the true nature of the experimen…

Eh. https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/12/12/interviews-with-milgram...

That is an interesting article. There are certainly lots of reasons for thinking that the behavior of the participants was much more complicated than is sometimes presented, but nevertheless, it seems not beyond possibility that, when questioned after the event, participants might have made somewhat self-serving statements about actions of theirs that they may have had qualms about at the time.

I find it interesting that the article makes an issue over the point that "the majority do not appear to have continued out of commitment to science," as this particular motivation seems to me to be one of the lesser issues raised by the exercise.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#108

Post by cafard »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #41
Tepix wrote: post #5

In Dortmund, Germany, on Good Friday, a commemoration ceremony took place in the afternoon at the Bittermark memorial ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahnmal_Bittermark ). 300 POWs and resistance fighters were murdered there just weeks and days before the end of the war. 1700 demonstrators showed up this year. We must not forget.

You are looking for the keyword "Endphaseverbrechen". Particularly crass: Willi Herold, the Butcher of Emsland.

There was a movie (The Captain?) released about that guy within the last year.

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#109

Post by stcredzero »

HillRat wrote: post #101
stcredzero wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can possibly weigh every Wehrmacht member’s actions Strawman. Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being. An attempt to rewrite history. False. You are projecting. My words state the opposite of what you suggest. I take it you are invested in the idea that it’s okay to throw away individual rights in some situations and simply punish…

Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being. Most human beings have not taken up arms to make war on behalf of a genocidal regime led by a fanatical anti-Semitic tyrant. It’s okay to look askance at those who did.

Most human beings have not taken up arms to make war on behalf of a genocidal regime led by a fanatical anti-Semitic tyrant.

Too many people in 2019 are caught up in groupthink and outright hate, but camouflage it and justify it to themselves as a worthy cause. This is what happened in Germany prior to WWII, and it is something we need to look out for.

It’s okay to look askance at those who did.

Yes. So long as you view them as individual human beings and the particular facts. So long as you're not responding to a shallow label and taking action with little thought. That is the underlying philosophical mistake which is the foundation of the very wrong you would hold against them.

I too would look askance at them. But if you treat them as fungible and disposable, then what exactly did our side fight for?

Re: Germans Who Refused to Execute Civilians During World War II (1988) [pdf]

#110

Post by stcredzero »

solveit wrote: post #102
HillRat wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you ever meet a former member of the Wehrmacht, you owe them the same general regard to be given any human being. Most human beings have not taken up arms to make war on behalf of a genocidal regime led by a fanatical anti-Semitic tyrant. It’s okay to look askance at those who did.

However, most human beings in their situation did. There but for the grace of god go I.

There but for the grace of god go I.

I also use that phrase. In my youth, I would even have meant it literally. Now, I will respond to it in the sense of cognitive traps which people too easily fall into and are lucky to escape. I have been "lucky" to have experienced racially motivated harassment in my youth, so I have had a direct view of what people taken by groupthink are like.

Far too many human beings in 2019 are falling into groupthink where they will gladly throw young people and children under the bus, just to serve their "side." Note that this applies equally to the political Left and the Right. Once one wants one's own side to win so badly, that basic principles go out the window, one's mind has been taken by groupthink.

The following is directed generally: If one is of the Left and cannot see or automatically excuse all of its transgressions, then one's mind has been taken by groupthink. If one is of the Right and cannot see or automatically excuse all of its transgressions, then one's mind has been taken by groupthink. If one is of the mindset that critics are automatically enemies, one's mind has been taken by groupthink.

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