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China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

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Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#131
post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

> Leica, a foreign company, is now apologizing about the ad (and has deleted it from their YouTube account) Joining Mercedes Benz in that particular hall of shame: https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/07/technology/mercedes-benz-ti...

Along with the airlines regarding Taiwan.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/25/business/taiwan-american-...

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#132
post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

Leica distancing itself from the ad isn't a good look.

The company is not very relevant for actual "working" photographers today (I use one, but tellingly photography isn't a real job for me), but it once was and at the time they stood up to their own homegrown totalitarian regime by helping jews escape Germany disguised as transferring employees.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#133

At what point does it all become ridiculous? Until the Chinese government reaches this point I don't see them ever becoming a true superpower.

Only more transparent, liberal, open government systems can withstand criticism. The authoritarian models are always and without exception the most fragile, which is of course the exact opposite of how those systems try to project themselves to the rest of the world. You can easily tell how fragile they are, based on their tempers and thin skin when it comes to criticism.

It's unfortunate, China was on a better path. The regressive shift to Xi's authoritarian-heavy model was entirely unnecessary. It was solely done for his own glorification, and he openly pretends it was done for opposite reasons. If that were true of course, Xi wouldn't work so hard to bury Deng's legacy under his, he wouldn't be so susceptible to that intense need for vanity and idolization. Prior to Xi locking everything back down, China had slightly opened up further to internal dissent and criticism, there was far more quasi-free speech 10 and 15 years ago online in China for example than there is today. I agree with the common statement that China's culture may never choose to fully liberalize or adopt Western-style democracy, however I also think they could have easily pushed a lot further toward that direction from the stopping-point of progress where Xi began to deviate the system backwards.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#134
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like an ironic blind spot to me. Western liberals claim to be all about tolerance and diversity and multiculturalism, yet seem to have difficulty conceiving of the idea that maybe some other cultures genuinely don't want to turn into Western Liberal Democracies.

What does it even mean for a culture to want something? Only individuals can want something. Societies can't want something; the Earth can't want something; a company or government can't want something. It's clear that there are individuals in China who do want tolerance. And it's even clearer that there are government officials who are scared of what individuals might start wanting if exposed to ideas of tolerance a…

Saying that the culture wants something is kind of a shorthand. It's more like a function of exactly what every individual in the population wants, how badly they want it, and how they go about ranking various things they want that sort of contradict each other.

I'm going to just skip tolerance here, because it's a complex idea not entirely related.

Let's use Democracy. There are definitely some people in China who want Democracy. There are everywhere. It's not remarkable that some people want it, but the numbers are the important part. If 2% of the people want it, then it's never going to happen. If 40% of the people want it, then it might move that way soon. Thing is, while 2% is a tiny minority, it's still objectively a lot of people. 2% can get you a bunch of activist groups and busy-looking protests and that sort of thing. It's much easier than you might think to look at a 2% movement that you personally agree with and believe that it's a mainstream view, the future of the country, etc, when it actually isn't.

Now that's just an example. Personally, I have no idea what the approval rating of Democratic ideas is in China. Tricky thing about totalitarian countries that practice censorship, it's hard to get an idea of what people really think. I'd like to think that it's a mainstream, growing idea. Clearly the Government is indeed afraid of it enough to go out of their way to censor it. But I worry that we may be fooling ourselves, and it has no real traction.

I would also point out that we don't have entirely clean hands either when it comes to tolerating 2%-size political movements advocating for radical changes to the structure of our government and society. Plenty of examples to pick from, no matter what your political persuasion is. I'm not saying we're as bad as them or anything - they're much, much further down that rabbit hole. I'm just saying that it's much easier than you think to ignore and excuse such abuses when they're against something that you don't like.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#135
post #7

In an unfortunate act of self-censorship, the video has been now removed from YouTube. Update: while the video linked by the article has been removed, here it is: https://youtu.be/dQpKcw-n330

"Self-censorship" is much scarier to me than the "traditional" censorship. It's terrible when a government takes away your voice. But it's so much worse when people do it voluntarily to avoid the consequences. (in this case, of course Leica is a business that doesn't want to lose a market with billions of people, but still... Leicas have been used for a hundred years to expose this type of nonsense, and now they're d…

If Leica wasn't run by a spineless board of directors then they would have the power to pursue principle instead of profit.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#136
post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

> ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that he whispered to the student next to him "89," which led the interviewer to surmise that the stude…

Money quote: "Which unit are you from?"

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#137
post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

> Leica, a foreign company, is now apologizing about the ad (and has deleted it from their YouTube account) Joining Mercedes Benz in that particular hall of shame: https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/07/technology/mercedes-benz-ti...

MB sales on Western markets didn't drop because of that, so could we say that was a rational business decision by MB.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#138
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weird take, since huge sections of the report deal with Wikileaks, email server administration, and social media manipulation.

Agreed, you have a great point. However, most of the content on Hacker News is controlled by a small group of people who have specific agendas. I wish they would be fair like you mention, but you have to be part of that small group.

could you elaborate? I have heard of these invite-only HN groups, but I have a hard time believing people would care so much about some online forum.

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#139
post #40

The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example: > ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that…

I'm curious as to what percentage of the US vs Chinese populations know about their own governments horrors?

I mean, what percentage of US students would recognize the Tuskegee experiments continued until 1972? I've had many people straight up tell me that is a lie, or a 'conspiracy theory'. In fact, I think this post will get down voted, despite asking a perfectly valid question and having concrete factual examples.

Not saying it isn't appalling that Leica is apologizing. Thought it makes sense from a business perspective.

I'm just curious to know what is more effective: the soft censorship of the west created by unwritten social norms or the hard censorship of the east?

Re: China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tienanmen happened in 1989. Would it not be better to apologize to Iraq, Libya and Syria and promise the world not to destroy entire countries, kill hundreds of thousands of people and put millions of families in disarray for those who genuinely care about human rights and lives? Instead millions more are threatened in Venezeula and Iran with the exact same warmongering playbook and propaganda while 'human rights lov…

Man, that was a hard-earned fifty cents. Nice work, comrade!

No way they made fifty cents on that. They'd all be rich based on the volume of this stuff.
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