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Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

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Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#31

Post by EliRivers »

harimau777 wrote: post #24
jimrhods23 wrote: post #18

If they regulate the gig economy, most of these people will be out of work. The reason is that a company like Instacart will need to make sure that these minimum wage employees are bringing enough value to the company, which means less people being hired. We need to ask the question, is it better to have more people making less money or less people making more money? If you interviewed them again, do you think they w…

An alternative would be the company taking money from their profits and using it to pay people a living wage. The argument against that I usually hear is that companies pay people based on what "the market" says their labor is worth and the employees should just get a better job if they don't like it. However, my understanding is that such analysis is based on models which assume that the people involved are rational…

Indeed, "the market". Like its some kind of God, and to obey its whims is morally correct.

Maybe it is what "the market" wants, but maybe society has different preferences. We routinely choose to override the market's decisions, and we can do so here as well.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#32

Post by zamadatix »

Eridrus wrote: post #30
tyingq wrote: post #2

Instacart was straight up stealing tips until they were caught: https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/2/6/18214335/inst... I wouldn't listen to anything they have to say on the matter of pay. They have zero credibility.

To play devil's advocate for a moment: most wait staff are paid primarily with tips, unless they don't meet minimum wage, in which case the employer makes up the difference. This is functionally equivalent to the situation at Instacart. Tipping is a really bad practice that we should end, rather than defend.

Devil's advocate? Places that take the tips from the wait staff and pocket them are operating illegally.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#33

Post by linuxftw »

EliRivers wrote: post #31
harimau777 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative would be the company taking money from their profits and using it to pay people a living wage. The argument against that I usually hear is that companies pay people based on what "the market" says their labor is worth and the employees should just get a better job if they don't like it. However, my understanding is that such analysis is based on models which assume that the people involved are rational…

Indeed, "the market". Like its some kind of God, and to obey its whims is morally correct. Maybe it is what "the market" wants, but maybe society has different preferences. We routinely choose to override the market's decisions, and we can do so here as well.

The market is distorted by the government. Smaller, independent companies cannot compete with foreign slave labor.

Low tariffs and high domestic taxes is a recipe for large corporations consolidating the supply chain in every industry.

Low wages are a symptom of government control, no other reason.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#34

Post by kevinventullo »

zamadatix wrote: post #32
Eridrus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate for a moment: most wait staff are paid primarily with tips, unless they don't meet minimum wage, in which case the employer makes up the difference. This is functionally equivalent to the situation at Instacart. Tipping is a really bad practice that we should end, rather than defend.

Devil's advocate? Places that take the tips from the wait staff and pocket them are operating illegally.

While they cannot pocket the tips, they can legally subtract the tips from the employee's hourly wage, even if that means going under the "minimum wage", which essentially amounts to the same thing as pocketing.

See https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm

N.b. The employer is unable to do this if they don't know about the tip, which is why, as I understand it, tipping in cash is preferred by folks working in the service industry.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#35

Post by EliRivers »

linuxftw wrote: post #33
EliRivers wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, "the market". Like its some kind of God, and to obey its whims is morally correct. Maybe it is what "the market" wants, but maybe society has different preferences. We routinely choose to override the market's decisions, and we can do so here as well.

The market is distorted by the government. Smaller, independent companies cannot compete with foreign slave labor. Low tariffs and high domestic taxes is a recipe for large corporations consolidating the supply chain in every industry. Low wages are a symptom of government control, no other reason.

Low wages are a symptom of government control, no other reason.

In a "true" free-market, whatever that is, there would be no low wages? This seems counter-intuitive. Do you have any evidence or reasoning for this?

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#36

Post by goostavos »

slimsag wrote: post #8
jchw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quit using instacart and ended my subscription after this. It was seeming like a promising alternative to using a car to shop, but I'll just continue working on that in other ways.

I was outraged when I found out about this and made this clear to their support. They didn't even respond. Switched to Prime Now and have never looked back: - Has an actual consistent service level, I've had some crazy Instacart people here in Arizona. - The tip has a default value, pre-calculated based on your order. - No more orders where half of my items get cancelled as out of stock.

Damn, I didn't know about the tipping schenanigans. However, it's weird how different my Instacart experiences are from yours. In Seattle everyone has been top notch, friendly, and like crazy helpful. I've been using it for, I dunno, a year? And I still get free shipping + waived delivery fees when I order. I have no idea how they make any money.

I've tried Prime in the past, but I'm not in the demographic they cater too. Whole Foods isn't my scene, and while I'm not too cheap to have something delivered, I am too cheap to pay $2.30 for an organic onion.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#37

Post by slimsag »

goostavos wrote: post #36
slimsag wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was outraged when I found out about this and made this clear to their support. They didn't even respond. Switched to Prime Now and have never looked back: - Has an actual consistent service level, I've had some crazy Instacart people here in Arizona. - The tip has a default value, pre-calculated based on your order. - No more orders where half of my items get cancelled as out of stock.

Damn, I didn't know about the tipping schenanigans. However, it's weird how different my Instacart experiences are from yours. In Seattle everyone has been top notch, friendly, and like crazy helpful. I've been using it for, I dunno, a year? And I still get free shipping + waived delivery fees when I order. I have no idea how they make any money. I've tried Prime in the past, but I'm not in the demographic they cater…

Oh, that doesn't surprise me at all. Instacart is fine service-quality-wise in SF/NYC/Seattle areas. It's just in any other major city in the US they seem to suck quite badly..

Also Amazon cut the prices on everything at Whole Foods by like 50% a few months after buying them. I completely agree their prices before (and still on non-whole-foods brand items) are crazy.

Everything I get from Prime Now is roughly the same price as my local grocery store, and I don't buy organic junk or anything.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#38

Post by ineedasername »

I hate their tip-stealing practice but I wish there'd been more concrete details of methodology for this. Car expenses are all tax deductable and yes paying 15.3% off the top in SSE employment taxes is a hit but it seems like these estimates may underestimate by a few dollars an hour. Not that that's saying much of course, it's still low. I just like hard data in these narrative-driven pieces.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#39

Post by skellera »

kevinventullo wrote: post #34
zamadatix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's advocate? Places that take the tips from the wait staff and pocket them are operating illegally.

While they cannot pocket the tips, they can legally subtract the tips from the employee's hourly wage, even if that means going under the "minimum wage", which essentially amounts to the same thing as pocketing. See https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm N.b. The employer is unable to do this if they don't know about the tip, which is why, as I understand it, tipping in cash is preferred by folks working…

That’s not the reason. Cash tipping is preferred so they don’t have to pay tax on it.
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