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Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

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Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#21

Post by fabianhjr »

areoform wrote: post #19

I would like to highlight and submit the paradox at the heart of the gig economy. At one end, the gig economy relies on a critical mass of consumers willing to pay for additional value on top in the form of convenience and real-time demand networks, but at the same time the economic model also leads to a race to the bottom as it assumes and necessitates that every request is served with the least amount of friction p…

> I suspect that as computing gets better, we will eventually create models that will make the invisible transparent and make our debates about these topics quaint to people of this future. Maybe what we need more than just lobbying instacart is systems that allow us to see economies in real-time and simulate outcomes of individual, highly variable, irrational agents at unprecedented scales in order to give policymakers definitive answers about issues like this, for we are governing blind and I am afraid of what the future holds for us.

We already have the compute power, just almost no interest in economic modeling besides ERPs. There are great projects such as ValueFlows ( http://valueflo.ws/ ) and ValueNetworks ( https://github.com/FreedomCoop/valuenetwork ) that are taking a stab at this area.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#22

Post by hocuspocus »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #17

I believe these services will fail if employment laws are ever strengthened, or held up more rigorously. The 'not so dirty secret' of the American economy is that it 'depends' (i.e. in it's current form) on tons of cheating, illegal migrant labour, de-fact sub-minimum wage, skimping on health benefits etc. etc.. It's 'sustainable' only to the extent that some workers, particularly undocumented - are willing and able…

> maybe ownership by the grocery companies

Big retailers deliver groceries in many countries already. In some places it's been the case for over 15 years! It's not rocket science really.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#23

Post by slimsag »

wsdfsayy wrote: post #14
slimsag wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was outraged when I found out about this and made this clear to their support. They didn't even respond. Switched to Prime Now and have never looked back: - Has an actual consistent service level, I've had some crazy Instacart people here in Arizona. - The tip has a default value, pre-calculated based on your order. - No more orders where half of my items get cancelled as out of stock.

You do realize Amazon does the same thing?

Hard facts on the differences between Instacart and Prime Now here in central Arizona right now as a consumer:

  | Prime Now                                | Instacart                                |
  |------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|
  | 2-4h Delivery                            | 5-6h Delivery                            |
  | $5 mandatory fees                        | $10 mandatory fees                       |
  | $5 tip suggested                         | $2 tip suggested                         |
  | Extremely rare to not get what I ordered | Every order _at least_ 2 items cancelled |
  | Consistent service level, professionals  | Inconsistent service, literal kids helping parents deliver my groceries WTF |
Let's pretend both of these services screw over the driver, which one are you going to order from?

Now let's compare them from the perspective of working for them:

  | Prime Now                                     | Instacart                                           |
  |-----------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------|
  | Accept 2-4hr work window on demand            | Accept individual orders on demand                  |
  | Guaranteed hourly wage $18 (good for Phoenix) | Paid per order only. $11/hr is reported average.    |
  | Tips contribute to base wage                  | "Tips are now totally separate" after public outcry |
  | Almost always work windows available          | Lack of orders makes most shoppers also Uber/Lyft   |
Which one of these would you sign up to work for?

I get it -- service jobs suck, and putting tips towards base wage is stupid. But to say that both of these companies are doing the same thing is like saying "because you can't leave, prison in the U.S. and Norway are the same".

Outside major California cities and perhaps NY, Instacart _sucks_, badly, and does everything in its power to fuck over the employees that literally are operating its business.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#24

Post by harimau777 »

jimrhods23 wrote: post #18

If they regulate the gig economy, most of these people will be out of work. The reason is that a company like Instacart will need to make sure that these minimum wage employees are bringing enough value to the company, which means less people being hired. We need to ask the question, is it better to have more people making less money or less people making more money? If you interviewed them again, do you think they w…

An alternative would be the company taking money from their profits and using it to pay people a living wage.

The argument against that I usually hear is that companies pay people based on what "the market" says their labor is worth and the employees should just get a better job if they don't like it.

However, my understanding is that such analysis is based on models which assume that the people involved are rational actors. That creates a contradiction: If the employees are not rational actors then the model's assumptions are not valid. However, if they are rational actors, then the argument that they should just get a better job isn't valid because a rational actor would have already done so.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#25

Post by sokoloff »

harimau777 wrote: post #24
jimrhods23 wrote: post #18

If they regulate the gig economy, most of these people will be out of work. The reason is that a company like Instacart will need to make sure that these minimum wage employees are bringing enough value to the company, which means less people being hired. We need to ask the question, is it better to have more people making less money or less people making more money? If you interviewed them again, do you think they w…

An alternative would be the company taking money from their profits and using it to pay people a living wage. The argument against that I usually hear is that companies pay people based on what "the market" says their labor is worth and the employees should just get a better job if they don't like it. However, my understanding is that such analysis is based on models which assume that the people involved are rational…

> if they are rational actors, then the argument that they should just get a better job isn't valid because a rational actor would have already done so.

If they are rational actors, why isn't the argument that their revealed preferences say that they like it "enough" to accept the bargain offered them? I tend towards the rational actor side of the debate and that they are satisfied that the bargain offered is their best option, so they (rationally) take it.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#26

Post by harimau777 »

sokoloff wrote: post #25
harimau777 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative would be the company taking money from their profits and using it to pay people a living wage. The argument against that I usually hear is that companies pay people based on what "the market" says their labor is worth and the employees should just get a better job if they don't like it. However, my understanding is that such analysis is based on models which assume that the people involved are rational…

> if they are rational actors, then the argument that they should just get a better job isn't valid because a rational actor would have already done so. If they are rational actors, why isn't the argument that their revealed preferences say that they like it "enough" to accept the bargain offered them? I tend towards the rational actor side of the debate and that they are satisfied that the bargain offered is their b…

I agree that it is likely the best option available to them. My issue is with the argument that "if they don't like it they can get a different job" and therefore it is morally justified for people to be payed a sub-living wage.

I'm not saying that the parent post is necessarily making that argument, just that it seems like thats the usual justification for this sort of thing.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#28

Post by bobthepanda »

hocuspocus wrote: post #22
sonnyblarney wrote: post #17

I believe these services will fail if employment laws are ever strengthened, or held up more rigorously. The 'not so dirty secret' of the American economy is that it 'depends' (i.e. in it's current form) on tons of cheating, illegal migrant labour, de-fact sub-minimum wage, skimping on health benefits etc. etc.. It's 'sustainable' only to the extent that some workers, particularly undocumented - are willing and able…

> maybe ownership by the grocery companies Big retailers deliver groceries in many countries already. In some places it's been the case for over 15 years! It's not rocket science really.

The main reason this hasn’t become bigger in the US is because of the sprawling, inefficient layout of most US residential areas; unless you are doing major volume on the order of FedEx or UPS you are probably wasting tons of miles getting to customers in isolated cul-de-sacs.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#29

Post by anbop »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #10
yeahitslikethat wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As are all the "sharing economy" scams out there. They all hide the costs in the math and pass them on to their employees. Uber, airbnb, etc.

They aren't scams. They are just opportunities of low compensation. A scam is where someone is robbing you blind because they lie to you. A crappy "job" doesn't have to be a scam to be crappy.

They lie in the sense that they take advantage of the fact that some people do not have the education or intelligence to think about things like asset depreciation, making them absorb these costs without being fully aware of the implications.

Re: Half of Instacart’s drivers earn less than minimum wage, labor group claims

#30

Post by Eridrus »

tyingq wrote: post #2

Instacart was straight up stealing tips until they were caught: https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/2/6/18214335/inst... I wouldn't listen to anything they have to say on the matter of pay. They have zero credibility.

To play devil's advocate for a moment: most wait staff are paid primarily with tips, unless they don't meet minimum wage, in which case the employer makes up the difference.

This is functionally equivalent to the situation at Instacart.

Tipping is a really bad practice that we should end, rather than defend.

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