Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids • Hacker News Board

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#31

Post by magissima » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

volkadav wrote: post #10

skybrian wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern hearing aids have DSP chips that do various kinds of processing. (Most obviously, they are pretty good at canceling feedback, though it's still sometimes annoying when playing music.) The marketing literature for the hearing aids I bought 8 years ago claimed that they do all sorts of fancy things. However, it's much like reading the marketing literature for a TV or a camera. There are a lot of impressive-sound…

For what it's worth, my last pair of digital aids were purchased circa 2011 as well, and the pair I recently (last few months) got aren't just better, they're astonishingly better. I ended up going with Phonak Audeo M's over the Starkey Livio AI's but it was a close decision. My two cents is that if you've got the inclination/resources, it might be worthwhile to pay a visit to an audiologist you trust to see what the…

I recently made a similar upgrade (old ones from 2010-ish) and I was also impressed by how much better the new ones were. The old pair's performance may have degraded over time, but the way the new ones blew them out of the water I doubt it was just that.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#32

Post by skaevola » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

farslan wrote: post #11

I'm using hearing aids for almost 8 years. This is just PR. What I'm looking for is a new company that disrupts all these companies. I've paid around $5K for one pair (Oticon) and it's just insane how much they cost. Bose tries to break the market with their "Hearphones", which costs $500, but it's not in the same league as the current HA brands (Oticon, Phonak, Resound, Starkey, etc...). There is tons of opportunity…

I've looked at the financials of hearing aid companies before. And the short answer is that the money is not going to the hearing aid company. Of the $5k you spent on your hearing aid, the hearing aid company was probably paid $500, and the other $4.5k went to the audiologist.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#33

Post by ska » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:54 PM UTC

microtherion wrote: post #29

gvand wrote: post #7

I really hope that Apple has a health device future in mind for the Airpods.

AirPods already can provide some hearing assistance in some situations through the "Live Listen" feature: https://www.wikihow.com/Use-Airpods-As-Hearing-Aids

Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the sort of direction that truly disrupts the hearing aid industry - something that can leverage the scale on in-demand consumer electronics to bring the cost down, but with enough DSP capability to do interesting things. Perhaps in custom fit (or refit) packaging for more comfort.

Doesn't have to be apple specifically, of course.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#34

Post by skushch » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

biggieshellz wrote: post #25

farslan wrote: post #11

I'm using hearing aids for almost 8 years. This is just PR. What I'm looking for is a new company that disrupts all these companies. I've paid around $5K for one pair (Oticon) and it's just insane how much they cost. Bose tries to break the market with their "Hearphones", which costs $500, but it's not in the same league as the current HA brands (Oticon, Phonak, Resound, Starkey, etc...). There is tons of opportunity…

Not an audiologist, but an engineer/musician with some mild hearing loss and some interest in these things. What needs to happen to bring the prices down is a unified prescription for hearing aids, like we have with eyeglasses. You can get your eye exam, request your prescription, and take it anywhere you want -- Costco, Zenni, or your local shop. That facilitates apples-to-apples competition. There's nothing like th…

Just an FYI -- you can get a hearing test at Costco or you can request your results and bring them to Costco.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#35

Post by hdx » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:30 PM UTC

My $2k hearing aids got stolen when the office I worked on got burglarized (seriously, who steals custom fit hearing aids?). I replaced them with the $500 Bose Hearphones and haven't looked back. My hearing aids were not high end, the only advantages it had was that it was more discreet and it's batteries lasted a whole week, but with the Hearphones I also get noise cancelling(love it on bart and the open office), easy access to volume control, it's rechargeable, it connects to my phone via bluetooth so I can listen to music, take calls, talk to Google Assistant, etc. All for 1/4 of the price of my cheap(by hearing aid standards) hearing aid.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#36

Post by adisinom » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:34 PM UTC

solatic wrote: post #12

farslan wrote: post #11

I'm using hearing aids for almost 8 years. This is just PR. What I'm looking for is a new company that disrupts all these companies. I've paid around $5K for one pair (Oticon) and it's just insane how much they cost. Bose tries to break the market with their "Hearphones", which costs $500, but it's not in the same league as the current HA brands (Oticon, Phonak, Resound, Starkey, etc...). There is tons of opportunity…

I'm convinced that the real reason why hearing aids remain so expensive is because of the need to see an audiologist. In a day and age where Shenzhen makes hardware iteration cheap for Chinese hardware companies, it makes very little sense for the hearing aids themselves to be so expensive. I'd love to hack on mine, but I lack the hardware setup that connects the hearing aids to a computer for programming, not to men…

Self-programming is a viable option.

In the past HA companies had a problem: audiologists weren't technical and didn't know how to program the increasingly sophisticated hearing aids. So the fitting software (1) automatically produces a reasonable fit and (2) at least the ones I've used have a section that asks questions and makes adjustments based on the answers.

It's also worth noting that there isn't really a "correct prescription" but rather it's an art of arriving at settings based on the client's goals and feedback. The audiogram is a diagnostic tool but only a starting point for determining HA settings. From the HA dispenser's perspective, adjusting settings costs them time and therefore money after they've made the sale. From the client's perspective, you'd need to visit the audiologist for every adjustment. Self-programming avoids the problem.

The programming hardware, software, and used hearing aids are all available on ebay. The prices are such that your average HN reader wouldn't have to worry too much about replacement costs if a HA breaks or goes missing. And the flexibility is great too.

You may not need NOAH. For a Phonak hearing aid you only need the iCube II (programming device) and Phonak Target (programming software). The NOAH software is an optional place to store customer data which is useful in a clinic that sells hearing aids from different manufacturers.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#37

Post by geomark » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 12:32 AM UTC

canada_dry wrote: post #23

solatic wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm convinced that the real reason why hearing aids remain so expensive is because of the need to see an audiologist. In a day and age where Shenzhen makes hardware iteration cheap for Chinese hardware companies, it makes very little sense for the hearing aids themselves to be so expensive. I'd love to hack on mine, but I lack the hardware setup that connects the hearing aids to a computer for programming, not to men…

> why hearing aids remain so expensive is because of the need to see an audiologist. A bit like the need to see an optometrist to get glasses. When I was in Beijing a few years ago I went to the glasses district (basically a few buildings all in the same area that are floor-upon-floor of eye glass shops)... I was able to get a thorough exam from the salesman, and had a custom made pair of glasses in a couple hours fo…

Is that a U.S. thing, having to see an optometrist? I did not need glasses when I lived in the U.S. But now living in a developing country my experience is similar to yours. Multiple eye glass shops in the shopping malls will check your eyes and cut lenses in a couple of hours. Cost depends mostly on how much you want to spend on frames - name brands are more expensive.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#38

Post by biggieshellz » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 1:08 AM UTC

skushch wrote: post #34

biggieshellz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an audiologist, but an engineer/musician with some mild hearing loss and some interest in these things. What needs to happen to bring the prices down is a unified prescription for hearing aids, like we have with eyeglasses. You can get your eye exam, request your prescription, and take it anywhere you want -- Costco, Zenni, or your local shop. That facilitates apples-to-apples competition. There's nothing like th…

Just an FYI -- you can get a hearing test at Costco or you can request your results and bring them to Costco.

Sure, that's an audiogram. It tells you what your threshold of hearing is at a certain set of frequencies. Additionally, sometimes they'll do bone conduction, which can characterize whether your loss is conductive (for example, trouble with the bones in your inner ear) or sensorineural (for example, cochlear damage from noise exposure). But that's just a starting point for fitting a hearing aid -- it's not like a glasses prescription that tells the optometrist exactly how to cut the lens.

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#39

Post by volkadav » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 1:20 AM UTC

wl wrote: post #17

volkadav wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, my last pair of digital aids were purchased circa 2011 as well, and the pair I recently (last few months) got aren't just better, they're astonishingly better. I ended up going with Phonak Audeo M's over the Starkey Livio AI's but it was a close decision. My two cents is that if you've got the inclination/resources, it might be worthwhile to pay a visit to an audiologist you trust to see what the…

What pushed you over the edge to the Audeo?

The Audeo M's (are? were?) the only ones with native, in-device/streamer-less bluetooth. They work just like bluetooth headphones/mic (used so far with: osx, android, linux desktop) and the sound quality is outstanding. The only minor irritant I've found so far is that you have to effectively power cycle them to re-pair to another device (eg phone to work laptop).

Re: Starkey and the Future of Hearing Aids

#40

Post by m463 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 1:24 AM UTC

farslan wrote: post #11

I'm using hearing aids for almost 8 years. This is just PR. What I'm looking for is a new company that disrupts all these companies. I've paid around $5K for one pair (Oticon) and it's just insane how much they cost. Bose tries to break the market with their "Hearphones", which costs $500, but it's not in the same league as the current HA brands (Oticon, Phonak, Resound, Starkey, etc...). There is tons of opportunity…

Watch out what you ask for. The disruption might be a "low cost" model that listens to everything you say, and works as a mobile cash register for amazon or an "interest tracker" for google.

:)