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People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

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Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#101

Post by jakevn »

jerrysievert wrote: post #93
jakevn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got the number from the website you linked. However, using Google Maps, I found 4. I'm not sure how many bathrooms you'd normally allocate per person, but I imagine the number of homeless and those out and about would necessitate more than that. How many bathrooms per person are in the typical office building? Should the number of these loos not similarly match the homeless population? Also, how is a timer in a bat…

the portland loo website linked reports that there are 18 in portland, so still not sure where you got the number one from (see faq at https://portlandloo.com/faq/ ), and a quick search on google maps shows more (simply entering "portland loo" on maps.google.com shows a lot more than 4). most of them are concentrated where homeless are, as well as homeless services (that, you know, have restrooms as well). i'm not su…

I got the numbers from here: https://portlandloo.com/loo-locator/

I'd argue enough restrooms are provided when the number is population appropriate and within a one block distance.

I also didn't say that restrooms aren't provided, but it seemed like it wasn't obvious to everyone why inconvenience or lack of dignity leads to non-use.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#102

Post by Balero »

IWeldMelons wrote: post #56

The problem is partially in the way American cities structured. They are either too urban (San Francisco, NYC) or suburban (perhaps Chicago is the right balance, with its alleys where someone can quietly poop). Many soviet and European cities are structured in different way - spots of high and very high density separated by greenery, where a homeless person can safely poop, without creating problems for the neighborh…

People defecating in a public park or green space is creating problems.

Telling people to poop behind a bush next to the street is not a solution for peopling defecating on the street.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#103

Post by kaycebasques »

dfischer wrote: post #87
kaycebasques wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that. From personal experience, when I’ve been given the opportunity to own something, such as a project at work, I found a sense of pride in it that I wasn’t expecting. So I am suggesting that providing people the chance to own something can be a transformative experience.

A chance to "own" something is a very deep iceberg. Ownership needs to consider a lot of things from an economic perspective, a rights perspective (law), society, and so on. Basically, I guess I'm just saying – it's really complicated and just concluding giving away resources is missing the forest for the trees.

I probably didn’t provide enough nuance in my original comment. I think we’re in agreement that ownership can be a productive feeling. I agree that giving stuff away isn’t guaranteed to lead to a sense of ownership. The main idea I’m submitting here is that, if we can somehow give more people the opportunity to experience ownership, society will function better. Stuff like what we’re seeing in SF is less likely to happen. If we’re in agreement then the question is, how do we go about giving more opportunities for ownership in society?

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#104

Post by dang »

conanbatt wrote: post #63
smadge wrote: post #47

Pooping is pretty high up on the hierarchy of needs. Higher than social norms. People are going to poop, sleep, eat, etc wether or not a dignified way to perform these functions is available. Solution: provide a dignified way to perform life necessities.

Root cause analysis shows that pooping is caused by eating. By removing all sources of food, you will solve the problem entirely and indirectly!

Please don't do this here.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#105

Post by Scoundreller »

the_economist wrote: post #84

The city of San Francisco provides homeless people with $520/month in cash, via an ATM card that refills on the 1st of the month. They give away $24 million a year in cash. It's a genuinely good idea to provide assistance to the homeless, but it should be in the form of Care Not Cash and given away equally across the state. Otherwise, you are funding a drug demand epidemic and likely creating incentives for people wi…

I wonder what drug prices are like on the first and second. And robberies of homeless people. And robberies of everyone else towards the end of the month.

Would at least make better sense to direct-pay rent for housing to the landlord and then stagger the remaining cash for everything else on a weekly basis on a different day of the week.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#106

Post by jerrysievert »

jakevn wrote: post #101
jerrysievert wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the portland loo website linked reports that there are 18 in portland, so still not sure where you got the number one from (see faq at https://portlandloo.com/faq/ ), and a quick search on google maps shows more (simply entering "portland loo" on maps.google.com shows a lot more than 4). most of them are concentrated where homeless are, as well as homeless services (that, you know, have restrooms as well). i'm not su…

I got the numbers from here: https://portlandloo.com/loo-locator/ I'd argue enough restrooms are provided when the number is population appropriate and within a one block distance. I also didn't say that restrooms aren't provided, but it seemed like it wasn't obvious to everyone why inconvenience or lack of dignity leads to non-use.

> I'd argue enough restrooms are provided when the number is population appropriate and within a one block distance.

the part of this discussion that i have taken part in has been around portland, where blocks are very small, but as noted before even where there are restrooms at more than one per block, there was pooping on the building instead of entering the building - so i'm not sure what would be a "proper" number of bathrooms at that point. at some point, you need to start looking at what other problems can be and look at other ways to solve the problem.

and no, i don't have that solution.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#107

Post by threatofrain »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #89
conanbatt wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even private toilets are disgusting when they service that population. I'd like to see you push a mentally ill person from pooping into the street into the heroine-needle ridden prostitution hub of a public toilet. Hell, I see the prostitution happen in front of city hall, where there is a childrens playground in open daylight!

The slave hysteria and general illiberal views by the government shut down the web sites that allowed professionals control over their business. Pros became independent and prostitution was moved inside. Now a girl has to hustle on the street where it is dangerous.

Do people seriously hustle like that on the streets of SF? Like there's a special street corner people know about, and you just pull up in your car and demonstrate your financial credibility? I would think there's much more stuff happening on dating apps.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#108

Post by kylemisc »

jdreyfuss wrote: post #65
ineedasername wrote: post #51

It looks like the homeless population has remained fairly steady over the same period of time that reported poop incidents has quintupled. That leads to two likely conclusions: Either people are reporting it more often than before (Has it become easier to report such incidents?) or more homeless are deciding (as much as it can be called a decision) to poop publicly, maybe a further symbol of spite for a society that…

I would imagine that it's a mix. A rise in reports (thanks to the availability of the 311 mobile app and such), as well as a rise in incidents. I don't have much to back up the rise in incidents (besides everyone's general feeling that things have gotten worse on the homeless front, and maybe something to do with the opioid crisis), but it certainly feels that way anecdotally

As another anecdote, I've not noticed an increase in human waste over the last few years, but I have noticed an increase in discussions about reporting it.

Another possible cause of the rise (with no evidence to support) could be demographics of the homeless population. I imagine propensity to poop in public is correlated with other behaviors that make it difficult to get off the street. If SF is getting people off the street slightly slower than new homeless people are being added to the population, and the set of people being reintegrated are less likely than the median to poop in public, over time we'd expect to see a slowly growing homeless population that is increasingly likely to poop on the street.

There may also be a matter of changing norms; if there's already poop on the street, adding some more (vs making the trek to a public restroom that may be unsafe) isn't as unappealing.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#109

Post by toomanyrichies »

jakevn wrote: post #46
manfredo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, the issue is not affordability but the fact that public restrooms are abused and used for dangerous and often illicit activity The former is not preferable because it spreads disease, and instills disdain for the homeless among the community thus decreasing willingness to dedicate resources towards services helping the homeless (thus hurting those homeless that do try to maintain good hygiene). Not to mention,…

Do you honestly believe that someone that is living on the streets, shitting in the open, is thinking about the spread of disease or homelessness PR?

It seems like there are two possibilities- either they do understand the impact of their conduct and just don't care, or they don't understand the impact of their conduct (whether due to mental impairment or some other cause). Am I leaving any other possibilities out, or is that an exhaustive list?

The reason I ask is this:

If they do understand the impact, then they're intentionally endangering public health, harming quality of life for the city's other inhabitants, and possibly committing a crime for which they are of sound mind and body to be (hopefully) held accountable.

And if they don't understand the impact of this choice, odds are that the same applies their other various life choices as well. And if that's indeed the case, can we as a society please stop treating their choice to live on the streets as one that should be respected? We wouldn't let a child make that decision on their own, so why should we let someone whose mental faculties are arguably just as lacking, if not more so?

I'm not arguing that homelessness should be a crime for which people should be jailed. In fact I'm aware already that the courts in the US have barred cities from jailing homeless when no other alternatives are available.

I don't pretend to know what the solution to homelessness is, but I think we need to at least discuss whether a person who is homeless due to mental disfunction can simultaneously be mentally sound enough to decide for themselves to live on the street. I think "respect their decision to live on the streets" lets us avoid making tough decisions about how to help people who are impaired from helping themselves.

Note that I'm only referring to people who are homeless due to mental illness, not due to other factors (domestic abuse, job loss, etc.).

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#110

Post by jpindar »

imgabe wrote: post #73
smadge wrote: post #47

Pooping is pretty high up on the hierarchy of needs. Higher than social norms. People are going to poop, sleep, eat, etc wether or not a dignified way to perform these functions is available. Solution: provide a dignified way to perform life necessities.

Here's what I don't understand. I live in DC. There's plenty of homeless people. I see them every day. But there's very little pooping in the street. Likewise in NYC. Homeless people? Sure. Poop in the street? Not so much. Neither place, in my experience, has an abundance of public bathrooms. There's almost none that are truly public, like a building specifically with a bathroom for the public to use. Most fast food…

Do some cities have more alleys, vacant lots, river banks etc. than others? Most of us wouldn't notice if people are pooping down by the river.
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