Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#11

Post by Ygg2 » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #9

NotAnEconomist wrote: post #7

> I find it alarming that a scientific organization has rules that restrict free speech using such vague, subjective language. Feminism has always been a sexist power movement, and the natural outcome of that is always authoritarian social policy. At it's core, feminism is about the sole focus on accruing benefits and status for one sex (or gender, depending on who you ask). Feminism fights for women's rights, but no…

> Feminism fights for women's rights, but not men's I mean, that's the whole purpose. I don't have a crystallised opinion on 3rd wave feminism but the 1st and 2nd were clearly necessary. It's like saying the black panthers were bad because they were not fighting for white people's rights.

As far as I know, women aren't a minority. They have longer lifespans than men.

But overall I do agree, they needed some extra rights. However, the feminist movement now feels extraneous, as most of their rights have been achieved.

Like any good bureaucracy, IMO the organization exists to further promote its existence, goals be damned.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#12

Post by NotAnEconomist » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #9

NotAnEconomist wrote: post #7

> I find it alarming that a scientific organization has rules that restrict free speech using such vague, subjective language. Feminism has always been a sexist power movement, and the natural outcome of that is always authoritarian social policy. At it's core, feminism is about the sole focus on accruing benefits and status for one sex (or gender, depending on who you ask). Feminism fights for women's rights, but no…

> Feminism fights for women's rights, but not men's I mean, that's the whole purpose. I don't have a crystallised opinion on 3rd wave feminism but the 1st and 2nd were clearly necessary. It's like saying the black panthers were bad because they were not fighting for white people's rights.

I don't mean to imply anything about previous millennia.

I'll just note that we're two decades into this one.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#13

Post by dnautics » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #8

Women are just as smart as men, i don't think anyone can debate this. Are women just as interested in the same things men are? This is highly debatable. There are biological differences between men and women.

I think there's an arguable point: Men are more likely to be stupid (defective chromosome and all that), and going into academia today is a really stupid choice.

It's stupid in the "high risk, but maybe high but questionable payoff" sense in the same way that wingsuiting is, and there's also a gender gap in wingsuiting too.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#14

Post by tghw » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #11

lm28469 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feminism fights for women's rights, but not men's I mean, that's the whole purpose. I don't have a crystallised opinion on 3rd wave feminism but the 1st and 2nd were clearly necessary. It's like saying the black panthers were bad because they were not fighting for white people's rights.

As far as I know, women aren't a minority. They have longer lifespans than men. But overall I do agree, they needed some extra rights. However, the feminist movement now feels extraneous, as most of their rights have been achieved. Like any good bureaucracy, IMO the organization exists to further promote its existence, goals be damned.

No, but women are marginalized in many aspects of life, including their careers. That leads them to be minorities in leadership positions and other positions of power, which then perpetuates the cycle.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#15

Post by NotAnEconomist » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

projectramo wrote: post #10

NotAnEconomist wrote: post #7

> I find it alarming that a scientific organization has rules that restrict free speech using such vague, subjective language. Feminism has always been a sexist power movement, and the natural outcome of that is always authoritarian social policy. At it's core, feminism is about the sole focus on accruing benefits and status for one sex (or gender, depending on who you ask). Feminism fights for women's rights, but no…

I think this argument would carry more weight if, you know, the numbers had changed. If the top spots in the highest paid fields (finance, medicine, management, research, technology, media, government) were actually reasonably close to parity, you might say the movement has run its course. But since we are still far off from that, and women are still expected to do more than half the work around the house and so on,…

> If the top spots in the highest paid fields (finance, medicine, management, research, technology, media, government) were actually reasonably close to parity, you might say the movement has run its course.

That's exactly what I'm calling out --

That conclusion, that they should reach "parity", is an authoritarian fantasy unsubstantiated by actual data and represents a bigoted sort of view of the world: the only outcome that matters is tribal equality, because people are defined by these base, essentialist tribes.

I'd counter the only outcome that matters is people who want to pursue a career are free to do so -- to which I'd point out that women entering male dominated fields enjoy considerably more support than men entering female dominated fields.

As far as we can tell, when women are freer to choose their careers, such as in Scandinavian countries contrasted with Eastern European ones, they tend to choose different careers on average than men.

Feminism, as such, has morphed from gaining rights for oppressed people into trying to oppress people into a paint-by-numbers outcome, and a position that women aren't accountable for the outcome of their actions, such as when they make different choices than men do.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#16

Post by yasp » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #8

Women are just as smart as men, i don't think anyone can debate this. Are women just as interested in the same things men are? This is highly debatable. There are biological differences between men and women.

> All or most of the major tests commonly used to measure intelligence have been constructed so that there are no overall score differences between males and females. Thus, there is little difference between the average IQ scores of men and women. Differences have been reported, however, in specific areas such as mathematics and verbal measures. Also, studies have found the variability of male scores is greater than that of female scores, resulting in more males than females in the top and bottom of the IQ distribution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligenc...

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#17

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

NotAnEconomist wrote: post #7

> I find it alarming that a scientific organization has rules that restrict free speech using such vague, subjective language. Feminism has always been a sexist power movement, and the natural outcome of that is always authoritarian social policy. At it's core, feminism is about the sole focus on accruing benefits and status for one sex (or gender, depending on who you ask). Feminism fights for women's rights, but no…

[deleted]

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#18

Post by hellllllllooo » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

NotAnEconomist wrote: post #7

> I find it alarming that a scientific organization has rules that restrict free speech using such vague, subjective language. Feminism has always been a sexist power movement, and the natural outcome of that is always authoritarian social policy. At it's core, feminism is about the sole focus on accruing benefits and status for one sex (or gender, depending on who you ask). Feminism fights for women's rights, but no…

> If you're part of feminism in an academic context, you're part of a majority power movement, which routinely denigrates and attacks the minority gender in blatant violation of Title IX.

Are you saying men are "the minority gender"? What planet do you live on? People who are academics are still part of the general population.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#19

Post by tagrun » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

> Data show that, at the moment they’re hired in research or academic posts, female physicists have on average fewer (fractionally counted) papers and citations than their male equivalents. As the careers of physicists progress, the initial representation gap doesn’t change much, and a second difference known as the “productivity gap” appears. This was confirmed by my data.

I can confirm this does happen based on my limited observations. Some people get hired at the expense of candidates which are better by objective measures of publication, citation and funding records, and those people tend to be women and/or minority groups. And despite being an unfair practice, it is encouraged from top and employed.

If there is a sexism/racism problem, I don't understand how more sexism/racism would solve it. I don't understand how there can be a righteous and endorsed flavor of sexism/racism.

Re: Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics?

#20

Post by lumberjack » Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

If he had acted with more tact, he could have avoided the outcry. His presentation was not at the right time nor place. Then going public (although he's not the only one at fault here) made things worst. You cannot do science in the public sphere. It speaks for itself that he was quickly embraced by anti-intellectual political factions.