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The Moral Order of Panera

thebaffler.com

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Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#31

Post by jrochkind1 »

int_19h wrote: post #2

It seems to me that the author misunderstands the nature of the libertarian moral-economic approach. The whole point of it is that whatever decisions people make wrt charity and welfare with their own money are the only ones that reflect their true morality, and thus, a free market will simply express the moral consensus of the society in which it operates. Thus, if the experiment supports the theory that "consumers…

By that logic, it is moral to let people starve to death when you have enough not to. I guess some people might think that.

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#32

Post by skybrian »

freshm087 wrote: post #25
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth is, the vast majority of churches and local faith-based charities just quietly do their thing and usually aren’t big enough to garner any recognition or attention at scale. Your original comment said: > When run well, those do far more good than even government programs. Can you prove this? Because Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps do more good for 100+ million Americans than your local…

Because Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps do more good for 100+ million Do more good because their have much bigger budgets? - Maybe. More good per every dollar spent? I doubt it.

It depends what it is. The government is efficient at sending people checks and retail stores like Walmart are efficient places to buy things. It's hard to see how to do much better for supplying people with new stuff.

On the other hand, thrift stores also have an important role for getting used stuff like clothing to people who need it, and charities do some of that.

Then there are various services that charities do, which is a whole different thing and not easily replaced. But some of their funding comes from the government.

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#33

Post by askvictor »

js2 wrote: post #30

FWIW, Raleigh has had an independent non-profit pay-what-you-can restaurant for about 16 months now: https://tableraleigh.org/about Customers have multiple options to pay and to pay-it-forward. - Pay the suggested price - At least half of the suggested price - By volunteering with us Pay it Forward - Tip to fulfill our mission - Buy a $10 token to hand out yourself in the community I suspect these may work better as…

Melbourne, Australia has had a pay-what-you-can restaurant (actually a number of them coming and going) since 2000: https://www.lentilasanything.com

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#34

Post by freshm087 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #26
freshm087 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps do more good for 100+ million Do more good because their have much bigger budgets? - Maybe. More good per every dollar spent? I doubt it.

I prefer my country’s social services delivered by professionals, inefficiencies and all, over church volunteers. Inefficiencies are okay, expected even, when operating at scale. Sometimes universal availability and coverage take priority (know what you’re optimizing for). Also, when discriminated against by faith based services, you have no recourse. This is unacceptable, and can be monitored and governed more effec…

I really don't know why inefficiency is ok, sorry. If a system is less efficient at scale then engineering approach teaches us to modularize/split it into smaller chunks.

Btw, you used "professional" word as if it's something good in itself. That's far from truth. Professional bureaucrats, and state officials quite often are directly interested in growing inefficiency because it can be exploited to expand budgets, and staff.

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#35

Post by [deleted] »

js2 wrote: post #30

FWIW, Raleigh has had an independent non-profit pay-what-you-can restaurant for about 16 months now: https://tableraleigh.org/about Customers have multiple options to pay and to pay-it-forward. - Pay the suggested price - At least half of the suggested price - By volunteering with us Pay it Forward - Tip to fulfill our mission - Buy a $10 token to hand out yourself in the community I suspect these may work better as…

[deleted]

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#36

Post by shiftoutbox »

You spelled Pantera wrong

Pantera was an American heavy metal band from Arlington, Texas. The group was formed in 1981 by the Abbott brothers – drummer Vinnie Paul and guitarist Dimebag Darrell – along with lead vocalist Terry Glaze.

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#37

Post by TeMPOraL »

rossdavidh wrote: post #8

So, I can totally believe that this particular idea didn't work well. I can totally agree that we should learn from it, perhaps that people want to give $ to feed the poor only when they don't have to sit next to them, or that people on lunch break don't want to have to tackle a moral quandary just then. But, the article seemed needlessly negative. So, the CEO of Panera tried something, put his business experience to…

Sounds like a standard case of people applying the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics[0]. That is: you've somehow associated yourself with a problem, so now you get to be blamed for it. Heaven forbid you tried to make money solving it - now you're a monster.

--

[0] - https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#38

Post by carnagii »

rossdavidh wrote: post #8

So, I can totally believe that this particular idea didn't work well. I can totally agree that we should learn from it, perhaps that people want to give $ to feed the poor only when they don't have to sit next to them, or that people on lunch break don't want to have to tackle a moral quandary just then. But, the article seemed needlessly negative. So, the CEO of Panera tried something, put his business experience to…

In the U.S. a large segment of the population (100M+) is told over-and-over again that they should rely on the expertise and charity of the elite in business and politics to take care of them.

Examples like this just show how naive and detached from reality that self appointed elite is and how little value their "charity" provides.

Re: The Moral Order of Panera

#40

Post by kiliantics »

rossdavidh wrote: post #8

So, I can totally believe that this particular idea didn't work well. I can totally agree that we should learn from it, perhaps that people want to give $ to feed the poor only when they don't have to sit next to them, or that people on lunch break don't want to have to tackle a moral quandary just then. But, the article seemed needlessly negative. So, the CEO of Panera tried something, put his business experience to…

These kinds of things are typically done for optics rather than any actual empathy for the vulnerable/less fortunate, It's just a failed attempt to win over the hearts of more of those consumers that can and will pay. Wealth/income inequality can only be solved by a redistribution. And such a redistribution can't rely on the same dynamics that caused the inequality in the first place. (How did these people become so food insecure?) The project was clearly doomed to fail from the outset and I think it makes sense to call people like this on their feel-good bullshit.
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