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AMP pages displaying your own domain

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Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#301

Post by themacguffinman »

IanCal wrote: post #153
themacguffinman wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. You can see this among other planned use cases for the web packaging spec here https://wicg.github.io/webpackage/draft-yasskin-webpackage-u...

I'm not quite following which parts were or weren't needed for what's been enabled in the post here, for the usecase of delivering a single offline package that can be opened like a website, is there something that works yet? Or a repo I should be following other than the spec? Once I can create webpackages and deliver them to clients a lot of thing I want to do become hugely easier and nicer.

I believe Chrome has already shipped an implementation, I don't know any more details unfortunately. It's still in the standardization process.

I know it's not exactly easy to follow but the only implementation repo I can think of to follow right now is the Chromium repo.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#302

Post by jefftk »

fartcannon wrote: post #294
jefftk wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMP has a lot of things all together, some of which I like: * I like that when AMP is used for ads then the ads are fully declarative. Advertisers getting to run custom javascript, even in a cross-domain iframe, isn't great. * I like that AMP allows sites (currently primarily search engines) to trigger preloading in a way that doesn't leak information to the site that is being preloaded. * I like the way things like…

I guess the question is: Do you trust google to treat non-AMP pages the same as AMP pages? If they don't/won't, no matter what your justification for why is (you believe it will provide speed, security, whatever), that's one of the walls. Sure, you can not use it, but does that limit your ability to be found on the internet? If yes, then there's that wall again. They're in the extend stage of Microsoft's favourite st…

> Do you trust google to treat non-AMP pages the same as AMP pages?

Google clearly doesn't treat AMP and non-AMP pages the same way: only AMP pages are eligible for the carousel in Google search, and there's a little icon.

Once there's a way for non-AMP pages be safely preloaded I would be very surprised if Google search didn't start doing that, though. (Speaking only for myself, not the company.)

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#303

Post by pvorb »

codedokode wrote: post #241
zackbloom wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason it has to be prefetched from not-you is to protect the users privacy. Until they click a link it is not considered acceptable to leak their search to the potential destination. Links have to be fetched from a third-party who the search engine trusts not to share the data, that at the moment is Google but will hopefully expand.

Google already can do this by preloading a cached page from its own domain. So this specification is unnecessary. I think the real reason is that Google wants to build a walled garden, but doesn't want the walls to be noticeable. Even with AMP, they display a header that looks like a browser's address bar [1] Also, on that page Google admits that it uses AMP Viewer to collect information about users: > Data collectio…

Exactly: Google built a walled garden and now replaces the fence by glass, because people don't like the view from inside their cage. The worst thing is, that it'll get away with it.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#304

Post by pvorb »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #272
codedokode wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The content is served from Google's servers according to Google's (not publisher's) privacy policy. While Google cannot alter the content, it sees the unencrypted HTTP request. I don't want neither Google nor publisher to control contents of my address bar.

Google already knows the unencrypted contents of the page, and they know you clicked on a link to it (from their search results page). The signed exchanges system doesn't reveal any information to Google _or_ the publisher that they don't already know. Your browser controls the contents of the URL bar, not Google or the publisher.

But Google controls my browser.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#305

Post by jefftk »

dbbk wrote: post #156
jsnell wrote: post #119

This is such a strange reaction from HN. The AMP cache URLs have been a top 3 complaint about AMP here. "I can't copy-paste URLs, it's hard for users to understand which site they are on, it looks like the content is provided by Google rather than the real provider", etc. Now there's a solution that preserves the preloading and validation benefits of AMP caches but maintains the original URLs, in a way that's cryptog…

As bad as the URLs were, at least you could edit them to get back to the non-AMP version if you were technically literate enough. Now there'll be no distinction, you could get sent to an AMP link from Google which is a lesser experience than the 'real' site and have no way of getting out.

> have no way of getting out

I believe if you refresh the page it triggers a request to the original site, which will probably then choose to give you the non-AMP version of the site.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#306

Post by jefftk »

deevolution wrote: post #227

AMP pages take forever to load, I hate seeing a white screen > 1 second. with amp that's all I see on mobile. A white screen burning my eyeballs, seemingly forever. And then I snap out of it and hit back to escape from AMPs empty void.

It sounds like you're probably running something that blocks 3rd-party JS and also doesn't execute blocks. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19680033

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#307

Post by rum3 »

tantalor wrote: post #251
loudtieblahblah wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because literally the entire private reason for AMP is a power grab. Not the public reason, but absolutely the private reason. If Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, or whatever publicly traded company makes a move its for money and power and preferably power, since that yields even more money. AMP on web and email is the perfection of embrace, extend and extinguish

Power grab from whom? Bing serves AMP too. https://blogs.bing.com/Webmaster-Blog/September-2018/Introdu...

They also push a browser based on Chromium. I wonder how many intentional incompatibility issues there will be with other web browsers that are not developed by G$$gle.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#308

Post by lucb1e »

spartas wrote: post #280
lucb1e wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Google just has too much market share. Last week I blocked Google from my domains (blog: lucb1e.com/!130), hopefully others will follow suit and degrade the search quality until people get better results (at least for some more obscure content) elsewhere, or perhaps until Google notices we are really not okay with their behaviour.

Are you blocking GoogleBot by IP range or User-Agent match? Why aren't you using your robots.txt file to block GoogleBot instead or in addition to your server-side logic?

Robots.txt was my first thought as well, but that is said to not actually block your site from appearing in the results. They'll gather from other sites what the page is about (think how to knit a sweater) and show that as title without page summary. Maybe if it looks like the site is down, they won't bother.

Blocking is based on user agent, they seem to set that reliably and the IP addresses change. You can do some reverse lookup magic but this was way easier than looking up every single IP that visits my site.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#309

Post by maxwell »

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #211
smilliken wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't see AMP if you switch search engines.

Just this morning I got pissed off by an AMP page and was considering a search engine switch. Maybe this is my sign.

AMP was what made me abandon Google Search in January 2018 for DuckDuckGo.

Surprising how little I've noticed the change, after using Google Search for over 15 years. I try queries on google.com maybe once or twice a week if I don't find what I'm looking for on DDG. If it's anything media or product related, I feel like I'm on an old, crowded MySpace page. DDG feels more like the old Google.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#310

Post by pxtail »

codedokode wrote: post #241
zackbloom wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason it has to be prefetched from not-you is to protect the users privacy. Until they click a link it is not considered acceptable to leak their search to the potential destination. Links have to be fetched from a third-party who the search engine trusts not to share the data, that at the moment is Google but will hopefully expand.

Google already can do this by preloading a cached page from its own domain. So this specification is unnecessary. I think the real reason is that Google wants to build a walled garden, but doesn't want the walls to be noticeable. Even with AMP, they display a header that looks like a browser's address bar [1] Also, on that page Google admits that it uses AMP Viewer to collect information about users: > Data collectio…

> I think the real reason is that Google wants to build a walled garden

Exactly, this is the real reason why this abomination came into existence - all of this is masked as work for greater good all for those poor kids with limited network speed. As end effect everyone will suffer - user will never leave google ecosystem, he will remain on search page without even knowing about it, creator will lose control over his own content

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