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AMP pages displaying your own domain

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Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#181
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're loading the content from the originating site, surely there's no benefit at all to signing. If you're loading the content directly from the site, the browser just needs TLS to verify the integrity of the content. And you're also back to the situation where you can't preload the content in a controlled manner or privacy-preserving manner, nor have the page-speed guarantees since the version being served to t…

> And you're also back to the situation where you can't preload the content in a controlled manner or privacy-preserving manner... A few people have pointed out the privacy-preserving aspect of AMP. I'm not sure I get how that's the case. Is this referring to the fact that the page is not being pre-loaded from the content owner's own webserver? The main privacy violators on the internet are Google and Facebook. How i…

Good question.

If you make a search query, but have not clicked on any results, you have a privacy expectation that the web servers of the search results you have not clicked on will not know you performed this query, your ip address, cookie, etc. For example, if you search for [headache] and then close the window, mayoclinic.com knowing that you made this query would probably be a surprising result.

With naive preloading, you would preload a search result from that origin. Your browser would make an HTTP request to the site and that site (sending an ip address, the URL you are preloading, and any cookies you may have set on that origin). So, this approach would violate your expectation of privacy.

Instead, if the page is delivered from Google's own cache, the HTTP request goes to Google instead of the publisher. Google already knows that you have made this query, and are going to preload it (the search results page instructed your browser to do so in the first place). The request will not have any cookies in it except for Google's origin cookies, which Google already knows as well. Therefore this type of preload does not reveal anything new about you to any party, even Google.

AMP has been doing this for a long time in order to preload results before you click them. However, until Signed Exchanges the only way to do this was that on click the page would need to be from a Google owned cache URL (google.com/amp/...). With Signed Exchanges, that can be fixed. The network events are essentially the same.

Note that once the page has been clicked on, the expectation of privacy from the publisher is no longer there. The page itself can then load resources directly from the publishers origin, etc.

To your last point, if someone posts a link on twitter to an AMP page on a publisher domain, and then you click it, your browser will make a network request to the publisher's origin. Google will not be involved in this transaction in any way. If someone explicitly posts a link to an Google AMP Cache Signed Exchange, then yes this will trigger a request to Google but this will be far less likely going forward as these URLs will never be shown in a browser. For example, try loading https://amppackageexample-com.cdn.ampproject.org/wp/s/amppac... using Chrome 73 or later. This is a signed exchange from one domain being delivered from another. You'll never see that URL in the URL bar for more than a moment, so it's unlikely to ever be shared, like I'm doing now.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#182
post #119

This is such a strange reaction from HN. The AMP cache URLs have been a top 3 complaint about AMP here. "I can't copy-paste URLs, it's hard for users to understand which site they are on, it looks like the content is provided by Google rather than the real provider", etc. Now there's a solution that preserves the preloading and validation benefits of AMP caches but maintains the original URLs, in a way that's cryptog…

Well, I wouldn't call this a solution just yet. If you read through the documentation, you'll find that this won't work on shared hosts and requires a TLS certificate "that supports the CanSignHttpEchanges flag. As of April 2019, only DigiCert provides this extension." [1] Plus, as if the lift of transforming HTML into AMP HTML wasn't already big enough for your average web site owner, implementing signed exchanges w…

> as if the lift of transforming HTML into AMP HTML wasn't already big enough for your average web site owner, implementing signed exchanges will be over the head of 99% of the folks building web pages on the Web

Converting web pages into AMP isn't something you can automate, but supporting signed exchanges is. You need certificate authorities to support the flag and web servers support the protocol, but if this catches on then the only thing you'll need from the site owner is the decision on whether to allow it.

(Disclosure: I work for Google)

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#183
post #180

Using the signed exchange mechanism means you allow anyone to serve your content. You will no longer know when it has been served and by whom. Instead, Google will know more about what your users are consuming on your website than you - despite HTTPS! Also, there is no mechanism to limit who is allowed to serve your content for you. I see no technical reason why the content has to be prefetched from Google instead of…

Amp does allow Google analytics and other analytics services. Unfortunately, most places don't use server logs for much :(

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#184
post #119

This is such a strange reaction from HN. The AMP cache URLs have been a top 3 complaint about AMP here. "I can't copy-paste URLs, it's hard for users to understand which site they are on, it looks like the content is provided by Google rather than the real provider", etc. Now there's a solution that preserves the preloading and validation benefits of AMP caches but maintains the original URLs, in a way that's cryptog…

It works best if you try understanding everything from the perspective of someone tail’ing Apache logs and fiddling with their kernel parameters.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMP allows Google to see exactly how you interact with every page on the internet. Just from the text of the pages you visit they can build a profile around you. What your interests are, how much of an article you're likely to finish, whether you're the type of person to highlight text as you read, etc. Unless you live on an island with a poor satellite connection AMP is useless as anything more than a corporate user…

AMP documents don't share user data with Google, which can be trivially seen by inspecting the network events that the page generates. If the publisher chooses, they can send logging to Google Analytics, but this is not part of AMP. The typical argument otherwise is that the AMP javascript is loaded from Google's cache, however these javascript resources allow for a very long cache lifetime (1yr if the page came from…

> The typical argument otherwise is that the AMP javascript is loaded from Google's cache, however these javascript resources allow for a very long cache lifetime (1yr if the page came from the Google Cache), so relatively few page loads will actually end up fetching them from the network for most users.

Christ this is thin as a privacy argument.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#186
post #180

Using the signed exchange mechanism means you allow anyone to serve your content. You will no longer know when it has been served and by whom. Instead, Google will know more about what your users are consuming on your website than you - despite HTTPS! Also, there is no mechanism to limit who is allowed to serve your content for you. I see no technical reason why the content has to be prefetched from Google instead of…

Amp does allow Google analytics and other analytics services. Unfortunately, most places don't use server logs for much :(

Chances are if you don't want Google to serve your content to protect the privacy of your users, you don't want to use Google Analytics either.

Btw your account seems rather active for an account with the description "Inactive. Deletion Requested." :-)

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#187
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brussels sprouts are good for you. AMP is more like medical experiments performed on you during an alien abduction.

What's up with this extreme hatred for AMP? I personally love AMP.

On iOS it continues to be very broken, although the difference in scrolling "inertia" was resolved by Apple.

AMP introduces a very non-Appley top bar within the browser, adds new swipe semantics that can be confusing, breaks "tap status bar to scroll to top" behaviour, breaks reader mode (although this is inconsistent), and generally looks out of place. The best way to describe it is like a GTK or KDE app running in macOS. It's clearly not a "native" experience and doesn't really look or act like any other webpage in mobile Safari.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#188
post #170
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is this all that much different? In fact I would say it's more secure. DNS can be spoofed pretty easily. This is a cryptographically signed package. If anything, I'd have more faith in this changing my URL than a proxy via DNS. Just because Google invented it doesn't make it bad.

> In fact I would say it's more secure. DNS can be spoofed pretty easily. This is a cryptographically signed package How is it more secure? If, as you say, DNS can be spoofed easily - I can easily get a certificate issued with the required extension and make a "cryptographically signed package".

> If, as you say, DNS can be spoofed easily - I can easily get a certificate issued with the required extension and make a "cryptographically signed package".

Spoofing DNS to clients is much easier than spoofing DNS to certificate authorities. Otherwise domain-validated HTTPS certs wouldn't mean much.

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#189
I would _pay_ google to be able to disable AMP permanently on mobile web results. The experience is the absolute worst. I'm fine with them wanting to ruin mobile web (that's their choice), but PLEASE let the users be able to disable this terrible "feature."

Re: AMP pages displaying your own domain

#190
post #119

This is such a strange reaction from HN. The AMP cache URLs have been a top 3 complaint about AMP here. "I can't copy-paste URLs, it's hard for users to understand which site they are on, it looks like the content is provided by Google rather than the real provider", etc. Now there's a solution that preserves the preloading and validation benefits of AMP caches but maintains the original URLs, in a way that's cryptog…

Different groups of people are commenting at different times.

Also, Mozilla members rally around a ton of stuff here on HN. That's why you see so many posts about Rust despite the fact that it's not really that popular. That's also why the top comments on stories about MS Edge switching to Chrome where lamenting the fact that they didn't choose Firefox, despite the fact that hardly anybody uses Firefox.

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