Why aren't figs considered vegan? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#31

Post by pygy_ » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

oeuviz wrote: post #29

croisillon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bees and hens don't produce "naturally" food for humans, they have their own use of honey and eggs [addendum to people answering "bees don't produce for bears either" or "plants don't produce food for humans either" : that's a strawman, I merely commented the term "naturally produced honey and eggs"]

But neither do plants produce "naturally" food for humans. The produce it to reproduce and make the fruit delicios so animals eat it and transport the seed somewhere else to spread. Humans are very bad in spreading plants by means of eating and deposing the seed.

... but they are vert good at speeading seeds by other means.

BTW, vegetable farming, be it organic or conventional (especially conventionnel) isn’t exactly non-human animal friendly.

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#32

Post by skilled » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

clydethefrog wrote: post #25

skilled wrote: post #8

Is there anything similar on Bee Pollen? What are people's thoughts on this? I have met people who are extremely opposed to it, whereas I myself can't get enough of it.

When someone disturbs a colony to take honey or pollen it places a great amount of stress on the bees. This disorients them for a period and, in that sense, their whole order has been tampered with. We cultivate honey bees just like chickens, cows, and pigs, and like all agriculture animals, their high population is a harm to wild populations: they compete directly for nectar and pollen, transmit diseases, and push w…

Hmm, so, my local farmer who sells glass jars of Bee Pollen at the market is doing this as well?

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#33

Post by Grustaf » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

oeuviz wrote: post #29

croisillon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bees and hens don't produce "naturally" food for humans, they have their own use of honey and eggs [addendum to people answering "bees don't produce for bears either" or "plants don't produce food for humans either" : that's a strawman, I merely commented the term "naturally produced honey and eggs"]

But neither do plants produce "naturally" food for humans. The produce it to reproduce and make the fruit delicios so animals eat it and transport the seed somewhere else to spread. Humans are very bad in spreading plants by means of eating and deposing the seed.

Exactly. Though it’s reasonable to make a distinction between plants and animals of course.

But still, veganism isn’t as clearcut as it would first seem.

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#34

Post by salthound » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:48 AM UTC

croisillon wrote: post #24

Grustaf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, producing honey is also very much part of the bee’s natural cycle, as is laying eggs for the hen and unfertilised eggs don’t suffer. Of course commercial animal husbandry causes endless suffering, but most vegans would probably object even to naturally produced honey and eggs. Just saying.

bees and hens don't produce "naturally" food for humans, they have their own use of honey and eggs [addendum to people answering "bees don't produce for bears either" or "plants don't produce food for humans either" : that's a strawman, I merely commented the term "naturally produced honey and eggs"]

Do bees produce "naturally" food for bears? Do hens produce "naturally" food for foxes?

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#35

Post by Arnt » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

ma2rten wrote: post #18

cyphax wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think maybe there are different "kinds" of vegans. As in: maybe not all vegans are vegan because of the same ideology. One vegan explained his motivations like this: he's against slavery, using animals is like a form of slavery and he's against that. Even if you treat the animal like a king; it's still not free to do its own thing. I really liked his reasoning, it seemed consistent and coming from a good place. Tha…

I'm not sure what you mean by "there are different kinds of vegans". The term vegan was coined by the Vegan Society. They have the following definition: "Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose."

Once you release a word into the wild, weird world of a living language, it's going to mean what people want. Including people who've never heard of the "vegan society" (which I presume is a registered society, in which country? NZ?).

The word vegan was explained to me, decades ago, by an swissair employee: "VGML is vegan, which is vegetarian, but also without eggs and other animal foods that leave the animal alive, and almost unspiced. If you want spices, you want AVML."

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#36

Post by lostlogin » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

croisillon wrote: post #24

Grustaf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, producing honey is also very much part of the bee’s natural cycle, as is laying eggs for the hen and unfertilised eggs don’t suffer. Of course commercial animal husbandry causes endless suffering, but most vegans would probably object even to naturally produced honey and eggs. Just saying.

bees and hens don't produce "naturally" food for humans, they have their own use of honey and eggs [addendum to people answering "bees don't produce for bears either" or "plants don't produce food for humans either" : that's a strawman, I merely commented the term "naturally produced honey and eggs"]

Bees don’t survive in the wild where I am in New Zealand and there is no way they can eat all the honey they make, which is an average of 65kg more than they use, per hive. If they swarm, the swarms will die from varroa. Having the honey there weakens their hive as it’s too large an area to warm during winter. What’s the ethical thing to do?

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#37

Post by cannonedhamster » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:51 AM UTC

oeuviz wrote: post #29

croisillon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bees and hens don't produce "naturally" food for humans, they have their own use of honey and eggs [addendum to people answering "bees don't produce for bears either" or "plants don't produce food for humans either" : that's a strawman, I merely commented the term "naturally produced honey and eggs"]

But neither do plants produce "naturally" food for humans. The produce it to reproduce and make the fruit delicios so animals eat it and transport the seed somewhere else to spread. Humans are very bad in spreading plants by means of eating and deposing the seed.

Plants that humans eat are literally some of the most widespread plants in the face of the Earth. Apples, tomatoes, potatoes, corn, soy, and rice are all massive successes for the plants in spreading, that doesn't even get into sugar producing plants. This started as humans eating and distributing seeds. Farming just made this process not need to involve eating. It's not just about delicious either. We eat some bitter and spoiled (butter, beer) foods for nutritional value.

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#38

Post by chris_wot » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:53 AM UTC

bloogsy wrote: post #7

The article touches on this, but veganism is not about only eating plants - it's actually an ethical decision to avoid anything that harms animals. As such, figs are definitely vegan since the wasp is living its natural lifecycle.

How does milking a cow harm an animal?

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#39

Post by lostlogin » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

croisillon wrote: post #17

jlg23 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visit arid Africa: eating an animal before it was /used properly/ (could be as simple as fertilizing the land here in southern Morocco) is considered wasteful.

do they eat animals dead of old age?

Can something die solely because it’s old?

Re: Why aren't figs considered vegan?

#40

Post by Grustaf » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 9:58 AM UTC

salthound wrote: post #34

croisillon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bees and hens don't produce "naturally" food for humans, they have their own use of honey and eggs [addendum to people answering "bees don't produce for bears either" or "plants don't produce food for humans either" : that's a strawman, I merely commented the term "naturally produced honey and eggs"]

Do bees produce "naturally" food for bears? Do hens produce "naturally" food for foxes?

I think the vegetarian argument is that while hunting may be natural for a lot of animals, including us, we have the possibility not to do it, so we should.

I don’t really agree, but it’s a reasonable stance.