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Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

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Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#111

Post by averageperson »

rhizome wrote: post #110
averageperson wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a jurisdiction that treats ownership and permission to do something as the same thing?

You mean in the "possession is 9/10ths of the law" sense?

Isn't that a principle relating to proving ownership?

If yes, then no, that is not what I meant, although I think I see what you are getting at.

What I meant was, "Is there a jurisdiction where a company cannot license (permit) access to data contigent on prior assent to an agreement with conditions on use, duration of use, transfer, etc. such that the licensee does not get the same rights as the owner of the data?"

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#112

Post by ForHackernews »

rhizome wrote: post #99
ForHackernews wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason to think the companies given access didn't slurp up the Facebook data for themselves? Have any of them denied it or tried to qualify what they did with their access to the Facebook API? Back in the day, I was part of a team that built an app that used Facebook Connect/what they were then calling the "Graph API" for login, and our app certainly saved all the data that Facebook made available back i…

I doubt they'd ever qualify or admit that, since caching pretty much any user data has always or nearly-always been against the API TOS.

Are you sure about that? This is from the current version of https://developers.facebook.com/policy/

> You may use Account Information in accordance with your privacy policy and other Facebook policies. All other data may not be transferred outside your app, except to your service provider (per, Section 3.7) who needs that information to provide services to your app. With the exception of Account Information, you may only maintain user data obtained from us for as long as necessary for your business purpose.

I imagine some smart lawyers worked pretty hard on that. I imagine that most companies have their own smart lawyers who write "[their] privacy policy" to say "we can do whatever we want with your data...to provide you better service." I assume that your app's backend is the "service provider" in question.

IANAL, but I read that as saying it's kosher with FB for your app to push data up to the mothership.

The phrase "for as long as necessary for your business purpose" sure sounds like "indefinitely" to me. Maybe my business is still hoping to make some money from that data?

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#113

Post by ForHackernews »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #109
mancerayder wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every other time the issue has come up, it's turned out that "access to user data" meant that the third party was allowed to ask the user for access to their data. Allowed to ask the user? Can you unwrap that for us?

To use most user-data-serving Facebook APIs, you need both authorization from the user whose data you’re reading and approval from Facebook itself for your app. Facebook has been accused of bad behavior when approving and denying apps, but they haven’t (as far has been reported) released any APIs to get user data without first asking the user.

This is true, but I doubt most users understood exactly what they handed over when they clicked "log in with Facebook".

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#114

Post by renaudg »

ForHackernews wrote: post #112
rhizome wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they'd ever qualify or admit that, since caching pretty much any user data has always or nearly-always been against the API TOS.

Are you sure about that? This is from the current version of https://developers.facebook.com/policy/ > You may use Account Information in accordance with your privacy policy and other Facebook policies. All other data may not be transferred outside your app, except to your service provider (per, Section 3.7) who needs that information to provide services to your app. With the exception of Account Information, you may…

This wording is almost certainly for GDPR compliance.

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#115

Post by renaudg »

AlexandrB wrote: post #26
black_puppydog wrote: post #25

If someone from the media is reading along here: it would be nice to mention every now and again that the "grumpy old progress hating nerds" have a pretty good track record at condemning fb/google. This entire branch of news that I would maybe call "dystopia gawking" just provokes a huge "told you so" in parts of the tech community, and that would be a good thing to keep in mind during the next gold rush.

I wonder why people were so unwilling to accept Zuckerberg's own sentiment ("dumb fucks") about their data for years. It seems like that's basically the attitude at Facebook from the top down. Everything else is PR spin.

What were you saying when you were 19 ?

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#116

Post by renaudg »

AlexandrB wrote: post #31
dymk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Dumb fucks” is more overplayed than “Google is going to shut down ”. It’s FUD. Zuckerberg said that when his tiny website was open to his classmates and a few others, and hasn’t been representative of how the company functions. I seriously cant believe that it’s still a meme people use to justify their hate for Facebook.

> Zuckerberg said that when his tiny website was open to his classmates and a few others, and hasn’t been representative of how the company functions. How can you claim that in the context of the revelations from this article? Seems like the company functions exactly like we're all "dumb fucks". And why do you think his attitude would change to be more egalitarian as his success and power increased? Edit: > I serious…

>It's the founder and CEO of a company that holds the private data of >2B users telling us exactly how he feels about his users' expectations of privacy.

No. It's a (literal) teenager thinking aloud, making comments in jest to a friend about his student project becoming viral and getting hundreds of users, to his own amazement. He seems to be noting how little people seem to care for their privacy.

And that's about it. There's much to say against Facebook these days, but it's a preposterous thing to say these comments accurately reflect the current views of their leadership at a completely different scale.

What are you on the record saying when you were 19 ?

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#117

Post by rhizome »

averageperson wrote: post #111
rhizome wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean in the "possession is 9/10ths of the law" sense?

Isn't that a principle relating to proving ownership? If yes, then no, that is not what I meant, although I think I see what you are getting at. What I meant was, "Is there a jurisdiction where a company cannot license (permit) access to data contigent on prior assent to an agreement with conditions on use, duration of use, transfer, etc. such that the licensee does not get the same rights as the owner of the data?"

It's not a principle relating to proving ownership. You cannot own contraband, for instance.

"Is there a jurisdiction where a company cannot license (permit) access to data contigent on prior assent to an agreement with conditions on use, duration of use, transfer, etc. such that the licensee does not get the same rights as the owner of the data?"

I, uh...do you mean...nevermind, I can't figure it out. Can you rearrange the question into a less pseudolegal form?

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#118

Post by averageperson »

rhizome wrote: post #117
averageperson wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a principle relating to proving ownership? If yes, then no, that is not what I meant, although I think I see what you are getting at. What I meant was, "Is there a jurisdiction where a company cannot license (permit) access to data contigent on prior assent to an agreement with conditions on use, duration of use, transfer, etc. such that the licensee does not get the same rights as the owner of the data?"

It's not a principle relating to proving ownership. You cannot own contraband, for instance. "Is there a jurisdiction where a company cannot license (permit) access to data contigent on prior assent to an agreement with conditions on use, duration of use, transfer, etc. such that the licensee does not get the same rights as the owner of the data?" I, uh...do you mean...nevermind, I can't figure it out. Can you rearra…

"Is there a jurisdiction where there is no legal distinction between selling data (transferring ownership) and providing access to data for a fee (licensing)?"

I thought perhaps you had a jurisdiction in mind where there is no difference.

Needless to say, in the US and in many other countries where Facebook conducts business, there is a difference.

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#119

Post by alex_57_dieck »

ForHackernews wrote: post #113
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use most user-data-serving Facebook APIs, you need both authorization from the user whose data you’re reading and approval from Facebook itself for your app. Facebook has been accused of bad behavior when approving and denying apps, but they haven’t (as far has been reported) released any APIs to get user data without first asking the user.

This is true, but I doubt most users understood exactly what they handed over when they clicked "log in with Facebook".

at least there's always a tldr (you know what exactly you are handing over in a few bullet points), especially when you think of all the contracts/fine prints/ToS you accept in life..

Re: Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years

#120

Post by okmokmz »

renaudg wrote: post #116
AlexandrB wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zuckerberg said that when his tiny website was open to his classmates and a few others, and hasn’t been representative of how the company functions. How can you claim that in the context of the revelations from this article? Seems like the company functions exactly like we're all "dumb fucks". And why do you think his attitude would change to be more egalitarian as his success and power increased? Edit: > I serious…

>It's the founder and CEO of a company that holds the private data of >2B users telling us exactly how he feels about his users' expectations of privacy. No. It's a (literal) teenager thinking aloud, making comments in jest to a friend about his student project becoming viral and getting hundreds of users, to his own amazement. He seems to be noting how little people seem to care for their privacy. And that's about i…

Ah look, another facebook/ex-facebook employee. Interesting how on this site the only people that consistently defend facebook are people who have or are financially benefiting from it, and yet they never mention this in their comments
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