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Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

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Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I think we have a deep "philosophy of science" disagreement. Basically, it is not just "falsifiability", but also "probability" of being correct. Probability that can be informed by things like formal versions of Occam's razor (e.g. Kolmogorov complexity, Akaike information criterion, etc). Here are a few premises on which I based my statement (I will pick one particular venue of scientific research, so I will no…

Yes, I think we do have a deep, philosophical disagreement here. You seem to be taking a more "coherentist" approach (very roughly, if theories X, Y, and Z all explain observed phenomena P_1, P_2, ... P_n, then there's probably something to all of them.") OTOH, I would counter that if theories Y and Z offer no testable predictions beyond that which established theory X does, then they are of limited value. In this wa…

I really appreciate your thorough description. If you are a fan of "mathy" scifi, check out "Permutation City" - it takes what I have described as my philosophy of science (physical reality being dependent on math) to a very entertaining extreme. I think you might find it entertaining even if you have the opposite views (math "just" being an indispensable tool for physics).

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#182
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by the bright side you mean you would only make it there it there as pure energy. Mass is converted to energy as it approaches C (Light Speed). Though getting mass to actual light speed would require infinite energy, so that point is moot. Let's say you get to 96% C. You would experience 28% of the journey. Taking into account the the time to speed up and slow down from C, you're looking at over 290k years from th…

Mass is converted to energy as it approaches C (Light Speed). Not so much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTJauaefTZM Try this thought experiment. Let's say you had a magic Bussard Ramjet rocket which scoops up energy and reaction mass from space and can accelerate forever. There are no special reference frames. So what happens if the rocket accelerates then shuts off its engine at the point where the "relativistic…

Don Lincoln's point boils down to momentum being a frame-dependent quantity even in plain old Newtonian mechanics, that the special-relativistic correction for momentum is simple. The point he is making about mass is, in essence, that one has to be careful in understanding equivalence relations E = m, E = p, E = hf, E = h/\lambda (here all are with c=1) as an overloading of "energy". In the last three of these there is a frame-dependent quantity: momentum, frequency, wavelength. In the first there is a non-frame-dependent quantity, the invariant mass, m_{0}. It is not the same species as a frame-dependent quantity m_{relativistic}, and at 6m57s into the video, he shows some of the dangers of "punning" them.

Your related comment says that m_{relativistic} is a pedagogical fiction. No, it is just a quantity that is non-identical to m_{0}. That students frequently forget (or do not know) that is a teaching failure.

However, you've introduced a gravitational event horizon, which is not something you can find in Special Relativity (whose spacetime is everywhere non-curved, that is, it is free of any gravitational effects at all).

If we pick out the globally flat background of Special Relativity and drop a test particle into it -- electrically neutral, low mass, and classically pointlike -- the latter generates the stress-energy tensor. Dropping indices and factors, G=T=0 -> G=T!=0, where G is the Einstein curvature tensor and T is the stress-energy tensor.

The stress-energy tensor is generally covariant: observers anywhere in spacetime, no matter how they are moving, agree on the total value of T at the point occupied by our test object. However, they are free to disagree on the quantities in the components of the stress-energy tensor.

The components of T can be written as a 4x4 matrix representing the flux of row-momentum into the column-direction. If (row,column) specifies a component of this matrix, and we count rows and columns 0..3, and we specify that our spacetime dimensions run 0...3 with 0 being the timelike dimension t, then a positive value of T (remember at a specific point in spacetime) in (0,0) and zeroes in all the other components means that momentum from the past of that point is flowing in the future of that point.

If at point p = (0,0,0,0), T^{00} = 1 and all the other components of T are zero, then at p' = (1,0,0,0), T^{00} = 1.

From Noether, a quantity that is invariant in time is conserved like the Newtonian conservation of energy.

An observer moving with our test particle generating T^{00} = 1 would relate the T^{00} quantity to the particle's rest mass (or invariant mass, if you like).

Let's call our 1 rows and columns "x" after the Cartesian direction

On a spacetime diagram, our test particle develops a worldline vertically along the t axis and not at all along the x axis.

Now let's complicate this a bit by having the test particle chuck a bit of itself out its back, engaging a classical notion of conservation of momentum. We'll call the 1 dimension backwards-and-forwards, or x, compared to our timelike 0 axis t. T^{01}, if positive, encodes the momentum coming from the past and leaving the point in the forwards direction.

Assuming coordinates (t,x,y,z) that absorb the emitted units:

At p = (0,0,0,0) we have T = 1, and T^{00} = 1.

Let's keep things normalized so that our particle is always at the origin of x.

At p' = (1,0,0,0) we have T = 1, and T^{00} = 0.9 and T^{01} = 0.1.

At P = (2,-1,0,0) we have the boosted exhaust: T^{01} = 0.1; at p'' = (2,0,0,0) we have the particle T^{00} = 0.9. Thus at p''' = (3,0,0,0) we have the particle still T^{00} = 0.9, and the exhaust P'' = (3,-2,0,0), T^{0,1} = 0.1.

But notice that this picture depends on coordinate conditions: the "rocket" particle at x=0 always, tracing out a vertical worldline on a spacetime diagram. The exhaust does not remain at x=0, and so traces out a worldline that has an angle from vertical.

If we flip this so the exhaust is at x=0, then we would say that the exhaust is at P = (2,0,0,0), P'' = (3,0,0,0) etc and its |T^{00}| remains 0.1 and it traces out a vertical worldline on the spacetime diagram. The "rocket" on the other hand is at p'' = (2,1,0,0), p''' = (3,1,0,0) etc and its |T^{01}| is 0.9.

What component(s) stress-energy appears in depends on the choice of coordinate basis.

Likewise, if we draw a spacetime diagram with the exhaust always at x=0, it traces a vertical worldline up the t axis, while the "rocket" traces out a worldline at some angle, because it is not at a constant x coordinate.

A completely different observer holding itself at x=0,y=0,z=0 would calculate different coordinate-values for particle/rocketing-particle/exhaust (changing the coordinates of p, p', p'', ... and P, P', .... However, it would agree that a normalized value of the whole T at p and p' is 1 but that the value of T at p'' is 0.9 while the value of T at P is 0.1. However, the total of 1, 0.9, or 0.1 respectively could be allocated to different components of T in 4x4 matrix form.

Technically, since T is nonzero at several points in spacetime (all those p and P points) spacetime is not flat. However, in any timelike hypervolume of this nearly empty spacetime, the total stress-energy will be 1.

Even if we move the "rocket" and its exhaust apart ultra-relativistically, the sum of their stress-energies at any time will remain 1. In Newtonian terms, what's being described is a total conservation of energy, and an unchanging centre-of-mass in a deforming system. Your rocket/bussard is similar: there is a system of ship + fuel + exhaust (+ waste heat + ...) whose observer-independent (or generally covariant) total is constant at any time. Thinking in a more field-like way, there are rocket-bits, fuel-bits, exhaust-bits (etc) which generate nonzero stress-energy at various points in the spacetime. The stress energy at each point in spacetime can be agreed by all observers, however they are free to disagree about how the stress-energy at a point is distributed among the various tensor components.

In order to form an event horizon we would need a much larger quantity of stress-energy in a small region, and that is not what is described in your posting, which is more about extremizing components of the tensor (at various points) rather than the whole tensor itself.

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Average Null Energy Condition (ANEC) makes it so there can not be a traversable wormhole joining two otherwise disconnected regions of spacetime. So by construction, any infinite null geodesic (a light ray) which makes it through the wormhole must be chronal (causally connected). This means there can be no traveling faster than light over long distances by going through one.

I'm kind of relieved by this. The last wormhole conversation I had with someone, I imagined a weapon using a short-distance wormhole with the ends opposed 180 degrees, and using a star's own gravity to tear chunks out of it. Everybody dies from massive solar flares. Of course time travel books, wormhole researchers, and myself all make the same mistake over and over: If you made a wormhole or traveled in time, why do…

Maybe this sounds a bit silly, but this is honestly one of the most mind-blowing thoughts I've read on Hacker News. Thanks, I can't believe I never thought of this myself in the past. :)

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#184
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kinda sounds like we're actually in a gigantic black hole...

It really does feel like the two concepts are related, but there are enough differences that you can't just say we're inside a black hole. For one thing, the inside of a cosmological horizon corresponds to the outside of a black hole. I do think the similarity is part of what drives so many physicists to study black holes and quantum gravity, though. Horizons are a consequence of dynamical spacetime, but a deeper the…

Astronomers in different galaxy clusters looking at the M87 black hole would agree within their observational abilities that there is a horizon localized deep within the visible matter of the galaxy. Astronomers will keep agreeing that into the far future.

Astronomers in different galaxy clusters will agree that each sees a set of cosmological horizons, but do not agree on where it is and what's inside it.

Schematically:

    thYou-->th-->g2-->yh
The gt/lt arrows represent the metric expansion in one direction; Them and You are the two respective observers' galaxy clusters. G1 and g2 are two distant galaxy clusters. Yh and th are your and their horizon, respectively. G1 is inside their horizon but has crossed yours. G2 is inside your horizon but not inside theirs.

Every point in an expanding universe has its own set of cosmological horizons non-identical to its neighbouring points, and dramatically different from points at great distances in spacetime (that goes for great gaps in time at the same spacelike location, and great gaps in space at the same lookback time or scale factor).

For astrophysical black holes, a black hole horizon localizes around a particular clump of matter, and not around other nearby clumps of matter. Far from a super-dense clump of matter you will not find an astrophysical black hole horizon (barring primordial black holes, for which there is no evidence anyway).

Cosmological horizons focus on each infinitesimally small clump of matter, everywhere in the universe, even in deep extragalactic space where matter is extremely sparse. Indeed, even matter-free points have their own cosmological horizon, and we do have substantial evidence supporting that.

A theoretical black hole horizon arises in a family of solutions of the Einstein Field Equations, from exact ones like Schwarzschild or Kerr, to solutions that become those asymptotically (in the limit as a black hole formed by gravitational collapse ages, for example -- Schwarzschild and Kerr are eternal black holes that are never in an uncollapsed state).

A cosmological horizon arises in a different family of solutions of the Einstein Field Equations, from exact ones like the de Sitter vacuum or the expanding Robertson-Walker vacuum, to solutions that become those asymptotically (these are vacuum matter-free solutions, and one can get there with a solution with matter that dilutes away over time).

The two families of solutions are very different, although there is an overlap of solutions for black holes in expanding spacetimes, where there can be both a black hole horizon (or horizons) and a cosmological one (or more than one).

We can compare these different families of solutions most strikingly using the behaviour of test particles scattered through the spacetimes: near the BH event horizon particles may be entrained into stable circular orbits around the horizon of a theoretical black hole like Schwarzschild or Kerr, whereas this never happens around a cosmological horizon in a solution like de Sitter or expanding Robertson-Walker: the test particles all plunge right through the observer's horizon radially.

Once through the BH horizon a test particle will inevitably and very quickly by its own "wristwatch" collide with the gravitational singularity after passing through extremely curved spacetime. Our galaxy cluster has already passed through many cosmological horizons centred on distant galaxies who are now outside our horizon too. Neither our galaxy cluster nor the many distant ones have changed their essentially exclusive time-like trajectories, and there is no evidence we are soon going to end up colliding with a gravitational singularity. (Current evidence doesn't suggest we are going to end up facing a big rip either).

Now, in the cosmological model under time reversal galaxy clusters do tend to converge and naively collide and collapse into a singularity eventually. However, galaxies all plunge into it radially and matter does not get entrained into any sort of accretion disc or similar structure. (They disintegrate into clouds of gas and dust that heat up into the "un-recombination" surface of ionizing atoms (mostly hydrogen) which gets denser and hotter until neutrons and protons disintegrate, electroweak symmetries emerge, and so on, all at once. Black holes usually get to swallow clumps of matter from time to time, whereas the time-reversed big bang singularity gets everything landing on it all at once, rather than some clumps early, and some clumps earlier still).

Physically realistic models built on these theoretical systems are grossly different; the models are good for predicting future things in our sky, so we expect the astrophysical reality is different too.

The rough similarities tend not to survive real inspection. Different horizons are different in a bunch of ways that aren't overcome by the few ways in which they are somewhat similar (or similar under time-reversal).

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shadows can move faster than light.

That's an interesting assertion... Why would shadows be able to move faster than light?

Say you're standing in front of the sun and you wave your arm. As the light travels away from you, your shadow will get larger and move faster. Eventually the movement of the shadow will exceed the speed of light. In theory it will approach infinity.

The light itself will continue to travel at normal speed but if you waited for the light to bounce back from distant planets you could observe the shadow moving FTL.

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#186
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is missing the obvious solution. If we're talking about tech this fantastical, the best idea is to ditch our ephemeral biological bodies, jump onto a synthetic medium, and call it a day. Hit pause so the journey takes a fraction of a second, or spend 1000Y in a VR - do whatever you want. I don't see a future where we're this advanced yet still content with our frighteningly fragile bodies.

The future you don’t see describes the present. We are (at very great, politically untenable cost, to be sure) capable of sending a ship full of humans and supplies elsewhere at a reasonable fraction of c . Our ability to do this continues to grow; although due to resource scarcity it’s not clear if efficiency gains will ever make it cheaper to do in the future than now. We don’t even know where to start replacing ou…

> capable of sending a ship full of humans and supplies elsewhere at a reasonable fraction of c

I am not sure of this. Even if we pooled the Earth's resources into constructing a generation ship, we still are not sure we are capable of making a ship that is sustainable both socially and technologically.

We do not know if our tech can last hundreds of years. Even if that wasn't the problem, we do not know if we can maintain a self-sustaining environment that lasts hundreds of years. Even if that wasn't the problem, we don't know what failure modes need to be accounted for. Even if that wasn't the problem, we don't know how to keep humans sane on such a journey. It is, after all, unethical to have new humans born on a journey they never signed up for. We do not have the right to determine the fate of our progeny.

An upload to a synthetic medium is perhaps the only sane and ethical way to accomplish this goal.

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#187
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow, which "incomprehensibly weird and advanced minds"? Our minds after cloning?

I left it up to the imagination of the reader. It could be one of our minds after an imperfect cloning, modified by someone for "efficiency." It could be super-optimizing AIs. Tens of thousands of years from now, thousands of light-years distant, who knows what it will be like?

Why cloning? Gradual replacement seems the way to go.

If you transform rather than duplicate yourself, it doesn't matter if you're still 'human'. What matters is that you're alive and conscious.

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#188

I'm not sure if this is the researchers' issue or is an issue with the scientific press, but it would help if the "discoveries" theorists made with their hitherto unestablished and untested theories like various string and QG based theories were not touted as discoveries about the real world.

QG is funny. There are some results around QG, such as holography, which seem to be universal. That is, they make sense with strings, loop quantum gravity or any of about ten other lines of work that people can do quantum gravity calculations with today. If you can prove that all of those have to say the same thing, that is a powerful result and probably means something about our world. It seems pretty reasonable tha…

> It seems pretty reasonable that wormholes could exist so long as they don't form closed-timelike curves

"Wormholes" are two entangled black holes that have been subsequently moved light years apart, preserving the entanglement during the move. They are a great mathematical toy for exploring the nature of entanglement.

But that's it. We have trouble preserving the entanglement of just a few ultra cold particles for a few milliseconds. I am far^^^far more likely to fall onto the floor by quantum tunnelling through my chair than a useful wormhole ever appearing. Postulating they actually exist is not in the slightest bit reasonable.

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I left it up to the imagination of the reader. It could be one of our minds after an imperfect cloning, modified by someone for "efficiency." It could be super-optimizing AIs. Tens of thousands of years from now, thousands of light-years distant, who knows what it will be like?

Why cloning? Gradual replacement seems the way to go. If you transform rather than duplicate yourself, it doesn't matter if you're still 'human'. What matters is that you're alive and conscious.

It seems the consensus in this subthread is that gradual replacement involves a potentially unsolvable philosophical problem, unlike cloning. How can you be sure you remain you during gradual replacement, and don't turn into some kind of a philosophical zombie?

Re: Travel through wormholes is possible, but slow

#190
post #63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unnecessary. visual cloaking. are you watching objects in 5th gen FLIR? zero radar cross section. even USAF has acknowledged craft you can't trivially observe. your point is rubbish.

This way of talking (using very short nominal sentences, citing many more or less related next to one another) seems very common among conspiracy theorists. I genuinely wonder where that comes from and if it's a conscious choice or some memetic imitation.

associating me with conspiracy theorist by my way of talking. points for a very well formed insult. I'm impressed by how much you got in a small amount of space: criticize my way of talkin, associate me with conspiracy theorist, suggest that I'm behaving unconsciously or mimetically imitating others in a robotic fashion. and all without making it look like an overt insult, giving you pre-emptive cover in case someone accuses you of insulting them. really quite brilliant.

now what could have justified this expenditure of effort on your part towards me? and what sort of experiences in your life would have driven you to develop the skills to become an expert at crafting these sort of subtle insults towards others?

those to me the really interesting things to think about. are you following me better now? my phrasing is now more in sync with your brain?

on the face of it, if you have a problem with my way of talking, that's your problem not mine. but please I don't think you're being very genuine, I think the real reason for your comment is yet to be discovered. let me think some more about it.

okay I think you were just having a bad day and were really angry and wanted someone to project onto and take it out on. sorry I don't accept your offer. you keep your fury it's yours.

okay the next interesting point is conspiracy theory. I mean are you scared of that term? do you think it's a term of abuse? see because we're making theories about conspiracies. what's wrong with that? I guess you're just deluded by the social programming into thinking that term conspiracy theory is a shaming word.

well that's just blinkers for your mind to stop you thinking dangerous thoughts. maybe you need that kind of thing. but me I'm okay with my mind. it's not my problem if you're not okay with yours and you need someone else to decide what you're allowed to think. who's mimetically imitating now, robot? hope your today is better than the day you commented.

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