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LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

nytimes.com

191–200 of 209 posts

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a major flaw which you are getting at. If you take the students who performed at the 10th-25th percentile in any school in one year, on average they would do better the next year because of reversion to the mean. The way to understand it is that the population they chose did so poorly on their test last year, it is likely that they did worse than they usually do. They are more likely to have had an o…

> If you take the students who performed at the 10th-25th percentile in any school in one year, on average they would do better the next year because of reversion to the mean. This is shoddy reasoning that assumes that each school year is an independent trial. In reality, school years build on each other and usually success in the next year requires familiarity with and competence in the previous year's material, so…

That's a valid point that someone who fell behind their usual performance may also do just as bad the next year since school material is cumulative. I strongly suspect that this effect is smaller than the reversion to the mean, but you are right we would need to look at data to know for sure.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a major flaw which you are getting at. If you take the students who performed at the 10th-25th percentile in any school in one year, on average they would do better the next year because of reversion to the mean. The way to understand it is that the population they chose did so poorly on their test last year, it is likely that they did worse than they usually do. They are more likely to have had an o…

>average they would do better the next year because of reversion to the mean. I don't think it works like that. Students who do poorly often do WORSE the next year. They tend to get more and more behind and eventually just drop out. The only way to reverse this trend is to identify them for more academic instruction, like an extra math or reading class. Even then, it often doesn't work. It's really really hard to tur…

It's definitely not the pattern that doing worse once snowballs inevitably into future years, at least not on average, because students' scores still always assemble in a nice bell curve.

I think a better model is that you are not likely to stray too far from your "true" ability, since even if you forgot (or missed) everything from previous years, you could still learn a certain amount in just one year (and probably you remember some things).

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>average they would do better the next year because of reversion to the mean. I don't think it works like that. Students who do poorly often do WORSE the next year. They tend to get more and more behind and eventually just drop out. The only way to reverse this trend is to identify them for more academic instruction, like an extra math or reading class. Even then, it often doesn't work. It's really really hard to tur…

It's definitely not the pattern that doing worse once snowballs inevitably into future years, at least not on average, because students' scores still always assemble in a nice bell curve. I think a better model is that you are not likely to stray too far from your "true" ability, since even if you forgot (or missed) everything from previous years, you could still learn a certain amount in just one year (and probably…

I never said it was doing worse once. And it absolutely does snowball. A student who is a poor reader in grade school often falls further and further behind.

And grades are not "bell curved" shape. That's ridiculous. Do you know the average grade at Harvard for every class, it's an A.

That's definitely not Guassian.

Man made things like income, grades, stock market prices and home prices are not "bell shaped".

They are heavily skewed one way or another.

I would recommend you do a little research before making such patently wrong statements.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a white male, the barber shop is one thing I always envied African-Americans. Seems nice to have a place where you can always drop by for some loose banter with the local guys.

What a strange stereotype...is this something people get from TV? How many black people do you know that use their barbershop as a place other than to get a haircut? Black people go to their friend's house or a bar, just like white people do.

> is this something people get from TV?

Well my wife is Nigerian, and she claims they have similar type barbers in her country. But mainly through TV, yes. I recently watched the latest Barbershop movie (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3628584/) which really made me think about it.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in the article, but the budget is $2m from the state, which is standard, plus $600k from LeBron, which is not

That $600k is where a well-funded PTA steps in for many schools in well-off areas and is a big difference between seemingly similar schools. Wealthier parents can afford to donate, which turns into a bunch of benefits.

> Wealthier parents can afford to donate, which turns into a bunch of benefits.

I live in (what has turned into) one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in my city. The elementary school has long been the envy of many. Not long ago I asked a long-time teacher from a nearby city, with whom I serve on a nonprofit board, what it was about that school that made young teachers want to work there — was it the additional funds from parents? Her response was no: it wasn't the extra funding, it was the parents themselves — educated, cooperative, involved.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a matter of spending money. As a simple example, per the numbers cited at http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/District_Dossier/2014/10/stud... DC public schools spend a good bit more per student that neighboring Montgomery County, MD. The schools in Montgomery County are quite a bit better in terms of most of the things you list, except perhaps addiction treatment and at-risk intervention programs (about whi…

I wonder if it's not that districts are mismanaging their resources but that when you try to provide education to students who live in poor communities you must confront all the pervasive effects of that poverty. And the cost of doing so approaches the cost of any functional social safety net. From that standpoint, of course it's much more expensive per pupil to provide a quality education to impoverished students. I…

It's both. It definitely costs more to educate kids without support from home than it does to educate kids who do have such support, for example. And at the same time, some of the school districts involved are in fact horribly mismanaged.

Throwing money at education _can_ help. It just doesn't _have_ to, unfortunately...

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange stereotype...is this something people get from TV? How many black people do you know that use their barbershop as a place other than to get a haircut? Black people go to their friend's house or a bar, just like white people do.

> is this something people get from TV? Well my wife is Nigerian, and she claims they have similar type barbers in her country. But mainly through TV, yes. I recently watched the latest Barbershop movie ( https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3628584/ ) which really made me think about it.

Ask your wife how often Nigerians men hang out at their friends or a bar, versus how often they hang out at a barbershop.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#198
post #137
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if Finland as an example really proves or disproves anything. Finland is a small, homogeneous, and pretty unusual sort of country, and the fact that they happen to do well in certain standardised tests doesn’t mean that anything in particular they’re doing is optimised.

This. Asian schools are great at providing high test scores. Their rigid education really drills the information into the kids and works well. But that incredible strictness simply would not work with most American children. The culture is simply incompatible with the strict discipline involved (and that’s not to say it’s bad, but only different). America’s trouble is that there are some majorly divided cultures livi…

Is it perhaps that the Asian parents can use physical discipline against their kids, whereas e.g. White parents wouldn't get away with that so easily?

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#199
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Asian schools are great at providing high test scores. Their rigid education really drills the information into the kids and works well. But that incredible strictness simply would not work with most American children. The culture is simply incompatible with the strict discipline involved (and that’s not to say it’s bad, but only different). America’s trouble is that there are some majorly divided cultures livi…

Is it perhaps that the Asian parents can use physical discipline against their kids, whereas e.g. White parents wouldn't get away with that so easily?

I don’t think that’s it. At all.

Poorly performing students are often the ones who are “physically disciplined”. My most successful friends are generally the ones who had very supportive families who’d struggle to even raise their voices against someone.

Re: LeBron James school that was considered an experiment is showing promise

#200
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any school which is claiming really great results pretty much never holds up. That actually isn't true. We know (we have had multiple state programs demonstrate in real programs) what works in the elementary to early middle crowd--roughly $15,000-$16,000 per pupil spent on the worst performers sustained every single year will bring the worst performers closer to mean ever year. Even the Gates foundation documented…

$15,000 spent how?

Quoting myself from a much earlier comment:

It's been a while since I chewed through the Gates foundation stuff but this one seems up-to-date about early programs:

https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/documents/Lessons%20from%20....

Page 16-17 talks about known effective programs and their costs. Note that the more expensive programs (almost all exceeding $15K per student--sometimes dramatically) are almost always more effective. Under $10K is almost uniformly not helpful and the further you get from 10K the less helpful they get. You can have effective programs for $10K, but it's really hard. Money really does make things easier.

From Page 21: "At the highest level, this “doing many things well” requirement results in a high degree of difficulty and is a key reason why high-quality early learning that sticks is so infrequently seen."

From Page 22: "ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF HIGH-QUALITY PRE-K THAT STICKS"

"3. Teachers delivering high-quality instruction is a key differentiator between early learning that sticks and early learning that, more than likely, will not stick. ...

4. All exemplar programs have two adults in the classroom—one lead teacher and one paraprofessional/aide— at all times. ...

5. All exemplar programs have maximum class size of 22 children or fewer and adult-to-child ratios ranging from 2:15 to 2:22. Adult-to-child ratios at the lower end of the range are particularly advantageous for classrooms where a significant number of English language learners (ELLs) are present and/or where a significant number of children with special needs are present.

6. Lead teachers with a B.A. plus suitable early learning credential, paid at same level as K-3 teachers. ...

7. Dosage. Three of the four exemplars offer pre-K that runs 6-6.5 hours/day, for 180-205 days/year. The other (Maryland) offers full-day (6.5 hours/day, 180 days/year) and part-day (3 hours/day, 180 days/year) options. It is clear from the exemplars and consistent with research findings that within high-quality pre-K programs the dosage required is related to the size of the achievement gap that must be closed for each low-income child. For low-income children who enter pre-K already on a trajectory to be kindergarten-ready, a high-quality part- day option may be sufficient. For most low-income children, at least one year in full-day, high-quality pre-K is needed to be kindergarten-ready. For low-income children for whom English is not spoken at home, children with special needs, and children who are significantly below age-level competency in one or more domains, it is likely that two years of high- quality, full-day pre-K is ideal and, in fact, may be necessary for most of these children to be kindergarten- ready on time. "

It goes on to other things as well.

And these exemplars are at the $10K-$12K per student mark, roughly. And even successful ones still can't get funding--"New Jersey was poised to expand the Abbott Pre-K Program in 2013, but budget pressures have delayed that expansion.".

And the Gates foundation is VERY gently suggesting that all the mediocre, non-useful programs should be shut down in preference to spending ALL that money on the most underperforming students. While this is likely the best use of resource, it is going to be a politically unviable one.

The upshot is that teaching properly is expensive, and money really DOES have an impact. And the effectiveness "breakpoint" is somewhere around $12K with some adjustmemts for cost of living. And your primary expense is the teacher vs class size--see page 17. The cost per student with a teacher at BA I qualification ranges from $10K with a 15 student class size to $8K with a 20 student class size. Of course, teaching effectiveness is inversely related to class size--pick your optimization point.

I don't always like the Gates foundation because I think they sometimes helicopter in, muck things up, leave, and then other people have to clean up the mess. However, they have been quite forthright with publishing their information and do acknowledge when they have NOT succeeded even when it goes against their agenda. That I applaud.

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