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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

lwn.net

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make a point that’s over looked here. As much as it’s PC to portray men and women as completely equal I think men who witness this behavior have a greater responsibility to step in. Our society has always defined “being a man” as taking on certain responsibilities and I think this is one of them. Further I think every father should teach his sons that they have a responsibility to be protective of women.…

I definitely disagree with this. I cannot see how women can be both things to be protected, and be taken as seriously as their male peers.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality".

It is perfectly possible to regard someone as physically weaker, but intellectually equal or superior. If I'm making a decision on whether I'm "taking someone seriously", physical strength isn't going to factor into that in many situations. In the context of FOSS conferences, their physical stature is completely orthogonal to whether I give a damn.

From here I only need make the assumption that those physically weaker than their peers may need assistance sometimes, and we're basically there. Of course, I would not assert that all women need assistance, or that some women need assistance all the time - I know some girls that play rugby and I'd wager they could beat 95% of HN readers in a showdown.

However the fact remains that many people believe that stronger people have a duty to protect weaker people, that many women are weaker than many men, and (importantly) that women are being targeted because they are women. I for one am going to step in if I see any shenanigans, because I am a man.

Note on male camaraderie and bravado: I'm not sure whether it is constructive, de-constructive or neither for men to place themselves as protectors and aspire to such ideals as "be a man" and "man up", but in situations like this such phrases serve as good motivators to get people to do the right thing, so unless I find evidence of such phrasing being harmful, I think it's a useful tool to inspire decent behaviour.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#172

I'm sure this will sound sexist as well, but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If someone crosses the line, by all means call the cops but also consider making an immediate and loud protest, and you might get help from an ad hoc group of temporary big (or little) brothers. A black eye and split lip might be the quickest way to teach some of these guys the right way to act.

While emotionally appealing, the problem with that type of "chivalry" is that you may get to enjoy the sights and sounds of your local county jail. Unless there's a couple of very helpful witnesses to the catalyst behavior, you're going to get slapped with an assault charge, moreso if it was verbal sexual harassment you started a fight over, or just so the original assailant can save face regarding the situation. I'm…

True. The black eye and split lip idea was wishful thinking. Perhaps a number of people showing up and glaring at the bully, or at least getting between him and the victim, would suffice.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#173
post #10

I get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field. Yes, ladies, you will be hit on a lot at a conference filled with mostly guys. You are an attractive minority. Now, to the point: --- There is no excuse for physical assault. I can even almost excuse a guy going in for a peck, but grab-ass and worse are not cool. If you're going to proposition a girl, do it with your wits and your words, not a f…

"I get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field." Cry me a river. Would you prefer people just shut up about it?

Yes. Things like "Men wanted" should not offend someone when used lightheartedly as a cultural reference, but it did offend a lot of people on HN. That bothers me.

Seems people went to town downvoting me here. I wonder what things would look like if HN had Slashdot's mod/metamod system. Oh, I can dream....

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#174
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely disagree with this. I cannot see how women can be both things to be protected, and be taken as seriously as their male peers.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality". It is perfectly possible to regard someone as p…

And there are larger men (example: me at 6'5", 275) who can literally wipe the floor with most other _men_. Of course, I have to protect them, because they are weaker and smaller. Can anybody say bullshit?

I'm up for equality, and I mean real equality. We will be equal when a woman hits a man in the face, and the man responds in kind by punching her, and nobody says anything about "hitting a woman".

Lastly, I have a duty to protect all those I care about, male or female. I would just as well die (or kill) for my guy friends as I would my female friends. What you have between the crotch doesn't matter to me.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#175
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Some details I forgot to say: the cocktail was in big garden. it was summer time. people where waiting around a table to have their glasses refilled) Please enlighten me. I have 2 scenarios - either he stole or he was playing tag. If he played tag, threatening is wrong. If he stole, what exactly should I have apologised for ? - letting him steal from an open bar ? - letting him run away with what he stole ? - daring…

> That's rude. Following up with threats of violence now crosses my line of "non acceptable behaviour". Yes. But perhaps 'catching' him crossed his.

So what's your plan? Should someone like this do as he please, regardless of the consequences for the others? That's exactly the attitude the article attacks!

To follow up on the original subject, let me rephrase what I understood from your one liner: "maybe the female attendees, by daring to show up in non-unattractive clothes, provocked the gropings". Sounds acceptable to you? Not to me.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#176
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A party isn't a sexualized environment unless there's some overtly-sexual influence. Similarly, open-source conferences are completely tame until the organizers hire strippers. And strippers are as "sexualized" as it gets (well, except for orgies or prostitutes).

Strippers are of course ridiculous to have at a conference. I can't even begin to imagine how anyone could think that it's a good idea. However, read the proposed policy: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Conference_ant... > We do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. Conference participants…

I agree it sounds ridiculous, but now I am having a hard time thinking of an appropriate example of sexual language at a tech conference. These rules set clearly defined boundaries that even the most tactless, socially inept people can understand and abide by.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#177
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you explain this then? > When strippers were hired to mix with people at the Saturday night event everyone attended, that made everyone uncomfortable I suspect that there is some level of ignorance and even acceptance in the community

Yeah. Hiring strippers to hang out at a dev conference is off-the-scale creepy. I am a 23yr old male and I would run a mile if I saw that. Partly because I have moral disagreements but mostly because I can forsee no way in which the interactions happening in such an environment, a big room full of drunk hackers and strippers, could be anything better than awkward and embarrassing to the point of delirium. Worst case,…

Perhaps they were acting out that gods awful movie Swordfish.

Then again, I really do not want to know.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#178
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality". It is perfectly possible to regard someone as p…

And there are larger men (example: me at 6'5", 275) who can literally wipe the floor with most other _men_. Of course, I have to protect them, because they are weaker and smaller. Can anybody say bullshit? I'm up for equality, and I mean real equality. We will be equal when a woman hits a man in the face, and the man responds in kind by punching her, and nobody says anything about "hitting a woman". Lastly, I have a…

I agree with some of what you said, but not total equality. There are differences between the genders, and I think some gender roles are more helpful than harmful (and some are undeniable, until we invent male pregnancy at least).

And yes, I would also protect my male friends. As it stands though, they are not the ones being sexually assulted (mostly - and in those rare situations, generally the guy is able to get himself out of it), and the article only talked about male on female assault, so that's all I really addressed.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#179
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Women are, generally, weaker than their male peers. That's not sexist, or discriminatory, it's how things are and (on a biological basis) probably how they will be for some time. To fail to acknowledge that, or pretend that the sexes are equals on all levels, is not only ignorant but in my opinion harmful to the progress of "equality". It is perfectly possible to regard someone as p…

And there are larger men (example: me at 6'5", 275) who can literally wipe the floor with most other _men_. Of course, I have to protect them, because they are weaker and smaller. Can anybody say bullshit? I'm up for equality, and I mean real equality. We will be equal when a woman hits a man in the face, and the man responds in kind by punching her, and nobody says anything about "hitting a woman". Lastly, I have a…

> And there are larger men (example: me at 6'5", 275) who can literally wipe the floor with most other _men_. Of course, I have to protect them, because they are weaker and smaller.

From other people your size, yes.

> Can anybody say bullshit?

Sure, but it's not coming from ZoFreX.

If person/entity A is being coercive towards (or just randomly assaulting) person/entity B, you should generally intervene to protect person B if possible. This applies to men protecting women from other men, stronger men protecting less-strong men from other stronger men, the police protecting the general populace from violent criminals, the various forms of consumer-protection laws, employment law, civil-rights protesters and some revolutionaries, teachers breaking up playground fights, ....

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#180
post #176
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strippers are of course ridiculous to have at a conference. I can't even begin to imagine how anyone could think that it's a good idea. However, read the proposed policy: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Conference_ant... > We do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks. Conference participants…

I agree it sounds ridiculous, but now I am having a hard time thinking of an appropriate example of sexual language at a tech conference. These rules set clearly defined boundaries that even the most tactless, socially inept people can understand and abide by.

A joke perhaps? It is ridiculous also because the punishment is far too severe.
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