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US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

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Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#31

Post by GVIrish »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #24
duxup wrote: post #2

I think it is pretty well understood that they weren't successful. At least to me as far as if he deserves protection as a journalist, I don't think it matters if he was successful. You can help someone try to commit a crime and even if they're not successful, that can be a crime. If a journalist is given information that is one thing, offering or even helping someone commit a crime and their role has changed dramati…

>I also wonder what might have happened to that other user whose account they tried to access had hey been successful. What would have come of that person's life / career had they used that as cover for Manning? From the affidavit, the password they tried to crack was for the Windows user "ftp," not attributable to any person. I don't understand how people can claim Assange is somehow at fault for attempting to save…

Trying to help someone evade detection whilst committing a crime is not really 'attempting to save someone from terrible treatment'.

To save Manning from being punished Assange could've guided her to only expose documents related to specific wrongdoing. That would've at least given Manning a plausible whistleblower defense. That defense may not have succeeded, but it probably would've led to a much, much shorter sentence if it failed than what she originally got.

But by trying to help her gain illegal access to an account for the purpose of enabling her to steal more classified information, Assange now has to content with conspiracy to commit hacking charges himself.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#32

Post by pfranz »

cjensen wrote: post #9
duxup wrote: post #2

I think it is pretty well understood that they weren't successful. At least to me as far as if he deserves protection as a journalist, I don't think it matters if he was successful. You can help someone try to commit a crime and even if they're not successful, that can be a crime. If a journalist is given information that is one thing, offering or even helping someone commit a crime and their role has changed dramati…

Yep. There are ethical rules for Journalism, which are enshrined in law in many places. One of the rules is that a Journalist may receive stolen information and publish it. But a Journalist may not themselves steal the information, or participate or aid in obtaining private information. Right now, it looks to me like Assange lied that he was going to help hack anything. I don't see how this is a crime under US law. I…

> There are ethical rules for Journalism, which are enshrined in law in many places. One of the rules is that a Journalist may receive stolen information and publish it.

I think the line is that specific acts of journalism are protected, but there's nothing special about journalists as people.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#33

Post by celticninja »

duxup wrote: post #20
cabaalis wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Claim" is my favorite of these words. Main example: "Elected official claims nothing bad was done" It has a gentle enough negative connotation to allow you to massage the emotions of your reader, while still being a technically accurate statement. Only people with something to hide will "claim" or "deny" something. It's the same idea where you're talking about something and your audience can feel a "big old but" com…

A while ago "allegedly" was very popular with some TV news networks. They'd take some pure BS story from the internet that aligned with their politics and report it as "allegedly" to sound fair... and then list out the lies word for word as they came from some conspiracy site and then just move on. They'd sprinkle their whole broadcast withe these tidbits. You couldn't help but get the impression that controversy and…

Allegedly stop you getting sued.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#34

Post by boomboomsubban »

GVIrish wrote: post #31
boomboomsubban wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I also wonder what might have happened to that other user whose account they tried to access had hey been successful. What would have come of that person's life / career had they used that as cover for Manning? From the affidavit, the password they tried to crack was for the Windows user "ftp," not attributable to any person. I don't understand how people can claim Assange is somehow at fault for attempting to save…

Trying to help someone evade detection whilst committing a crime is not really 'attempting to save someone from terrible treatment'. To save Manning from being punished Assange could've guided her to only expose documents related to specific wrongdoing. That would've at least given Manning a plausible whistleblower defense. That defense may not have succeeded, but it probably would've led to a much, much shorter sent…

>But by trying to help her gain illegal access to an account for the purpose of enabling her to steal more classified information,

This is not what happened. Access to the account provided no additional information, it just would have protected her identity somewhat.

>To save Manning from being punished Assange could've guided her to only expose documents related to specific wrongdoing. That would've at least given Manning a plausible whistleblower defense. That defense may not have succeeded, but it probably would've led to a much, much shorter sentence if it failed than what she originally got.

This already happened. For example, only 75,000 of the 91,000 Afghanistan war documents have ever been released. The defense used this in her trial.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#35

Post by will_brown »

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #25
will_brown wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in fairness these words have a basis in the legal system. Think of an insurance claim and/or civil claim. In response to a civil complaint initiating a civil lawsuit, the defendant must answer the complaint by “admitting” or “denying” each allegation. And “allege” is the entire basis of US criminal law...as in innocent until proven guilty. As in the defendant allegedly committed the crime until and unless convic…

> These are all legal terms of art. More like the art of legalese, TBH.

admit, deny, allege, stipulate are legalese now?

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#36

Post by equalunique »

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #29
equalunique wrote: post #13

Hacking computers shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Fraud, theft, etc. are the types of crimes many "hackers" could be charged with, but computer intrusion itself shouldn't be counted among them.

I translated this for you: Breaking into houses shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Stealing things, breaking stuff, or photographing ID's are crimes that people can be charged with, but I don't think that breaking into houses should be counted. See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as p…

>See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as possible, and the police saying I have no right to do anything to them until they do something first is a bad idea- if they shoot me, how to I fire back? If they break my valuables, how do I react?

Stealing is a crime. Shooting you is a crime. Simply "being there" should qualify as a crime, or perhaps maybe a misdemeanor, only after some scrutiny. Intent as a factor should have more weight.

Using your house analogy, if a bystander notices the door to your home is wide open, they shouldn't be afraid to check if anyone inside is potentially incapacitated or is having some other emergency, just because entering an open door is a crime under your logic. In one society, a concerned neighbor finds you lying on the floor unconscious, dials 9/11, and emergency services arrives on time for you to be saved. In the other society, nobody checks on you, because why take the risk?

Similarly, the whole concept of "white hat" hacking is something you seem either unfamiliar with and/or at odds with.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#37

Post by rurban »

duxup wrote: post #16
cjensen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. There are ethical rules for Journalism, which are enshrined in law in many places. One of the rules is that a Journalist may receive stolen information and publish it. But a Journalist may not themselves steal the information, or participate or aid in obtaining private information. Right now, it looks to me like Assange lied that he was going to help hack anything. I don't see how this is a crime under US law. I…

It will be interesting to see how / if this plays out in court. I don't really trust Assange to tell his own story honestly as it is so I kinda want to see what anyone can prove when the rubber hits the road.

You don't need to trust Assange or the Government. Manning already stated that the allegation is categorally wrong. And there's no proof that they did it. But they still went with it, just to get him extradited. A common tactic.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#38

Post by equalunique »

techntoke wrote: post #22
equalunique wrote: post #13

Hacking computers shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Fraud, theft, etc. are the types of crimes many "hackers" could be charged with, but computer intrusion itself shouldn't be counted among them.

Trespassing is a crime, as well as breaking and entering.

I am curious to know what your opinion is regarding the case of Aaron Swartz. Was 35 years appropriate?

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#39

Post by equalunique »

vkou wrote: post #14
equalunique wrote: post #13

Hacking computers shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Fraud, theft, etc. are the types of crimes many "hackers" could be charged with, but computer intrusion itself shouldn't be counted among them.

Invading a space is a crime, even if no other crime has been committed, be it in facilitating the invasion, or afterwards.

So if Y Combinator updated their Hacker News terms of service to say "vkou is no longer allowed on the site" you will turn yourself in to the police?

My point is, you aren't doing yourself any favors by championing the ability of big institutions to put you in jail simply for accessing information.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#40

Post by anfilt »

I am scratching my head to why cracking a password is a crime?

Generally that means you already have a hash. Then your trying see if passwords match that hash... It's also not really cracking anything, but just guessing.

That's just math.

The crime was hacking the system to get the hash.

Moreover, what about all those researchers who compiled lists of the most common passwords was the act of guessing those hashes a criminal act these seems to be a very dangerous idea of a crime. As in it could ensnare innocent people.

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