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Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

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Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#31

Post by appleflaxen »

mikorym wrote: post #7

I think that modern religions and the way they learn to part with certain medieval ways is critical. The Jewish religion has been arguably successful with this, producing exceedingly prestigious scientists and mathematicians. The risk is always the "fundamental" factions.

I disagree that their religion produced them.

Their genetics and their environment did, to varying degrees, but religion is only one small aspect of the latter.

What's your basis to assert that it is the most important factor?

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#32

Post by saalweachter »

Veen wrote: post #28
roel_v wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the interests of pluralism (not relativism)" Honestly asking as I hadn't seen anyone side-stepping the moral absolutism/relativism question in this way before - where is the line between 'pluralism' and 'relativism'? At what point does 'accepting' an alternative set of morals become 'condoning' them? (again I'm not arguing a side here and I'm not asking in an attempt to tease out a standpoint I can attack - I'm i…

What I have in mind is cultural pluralism. Take the US; most people accept a certain set of political norms: democracy, the constitution, a republic-style political system. But people who accept those basic norms and institutions can have a wide variety of cultural and political beliefs. They can be left wing or right wing, Orthodox Jew or atheist, patriarchal or egalitarian. But they all accept the basic US framewor…

I think it's important within the pluralist framework to also recognize that we require conformance from all groups in more than just the small core. We require all groups to be law-abiding in action if not thought. Part of the democratic ideals is that if The People make a law, everyone will follow it, even as they campaign to change it. (Which glosses over some legitimate forms of protest, but this is an internet comment, not a book.)

Whether there are laws on the books that could be applied to this case, or whether there should be, I am not a lawyer or a politician, but American pluralism doesn't require blind acceptance of any practice of another group, even religious practice (polygamy, for instance?). The core of our shared system provides mechanisms for deciding whether a behavior is acceptable, prohibited or obligate.

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#33

Post by microcolonel »

exelius wrote: post #21
Geeek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She is not, she clearly identifies herself as part of Conservative Judaism.

Yeah, exactly. I have more than one (female) Orthodox friend and they’re constantly having to stand up to elders within their own communities for respect. The older generations still believe women shouldn’t work.

Disagreement with orthodoxy is heterodox. You can't be orthodox and heterodox at the same time, that makes no sense.

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#34

Post by pcl »

appleflaxen wrote: post #30
greedyloo wrote: post #16

Those little stances against segregation are necessary to humanity advancing. Also better when you do it with sarcasm !

Completely agree about your humanity point, but completely disagree about sarcasm. I personally use sarcasm far, far too often. And when I sit back and reflect on those times, I am completely certain that it never advances my point farther (vs. the same point made without sarcasm), never makes my point seem more clever, and never makes my point seem more funny. So why do I continue to do it? Honestly, I don't know. I…

I frequently find myself in the same boat. Growing up, my mom always told me that sarcasm is the weakest form of humor. When I'm about to say something sarcastic, I try to remember that advice and come up with a better turn of phrase.

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#35

Post by eddieroger »

esarbe wrote: post #6
exelius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty clear the author is Orthodox, so this is within her community. That said, many forms of Orthodox Judaism aren’t far off from what we would call “radical Islam” when it comes to their views on women (they don’t wear an abaya, but many wear wigs and full-body covering).

Why is this downvoted? Seems pretty much on the spot.

Because the author writes that her synagogue is a member of the Conservative movement, which is not the same as the Orthodox movement? It's not so much "pretty clear" as it is "wrong."

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#36

Post by hycaria »

microcolonel wrote: post #2

Okay, you have your copyright. The exact strictures of the religion are considered important by these people, so if you're not willing to follow those strictures, you're just not part of the same group. No harm, no foul. If you don't want to cut your son's genitals, you'll also not be welcome in the same way. Edit: to be clear, I agree with the way that Deborah resolved this issue. But I'm just not sure how she could…

>The exact strictures of the religion are considered important by these people,

Sounds a bit ironic to tolerate using work from a woman without being willing to give her full credit then. Maybe they should get pictures from a male photographer next time.

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#37

Post by veryworried »

appleflaxen wrote: post #30
greedyloo wrote: post #16

Those little stances against segregation are necessary to humanity advancing. Also better when you do it with sarcasm !

Completely agree about your humanity point, but completely disagree about sarcasm. I personally use sarcasm far, far too often. And when I sit back and reflect on those times, I am completely certain that it never advances my point farther (vs. the same point made without sarcasm), never makes my point seem more clever, and never makes my point seem more funny. So why do I continue to do it? Honestly, I don't know. I…

It is almost certainly for self-protection. Responding seriously in response to someone's sarcasm or snarks is a fool's endeavor. The person doesn't care and their only interest is to score cheap laughs at the cost of lowering the level of discourse.

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#38

Post by [deleted] »

appleflaxen wrote: post #31
mikorym wrote: post #7

I think that modern religions and the way they learn to part with certain medieval ways is critical. The Jewish religion has been arguably successful with this, producing exceedingly prestigious scientists and mathematicians. The risk is always the "fundamental" factions.

I disagree that their religion produced them. Their genetics and their environment did, to varying degrees, but religion is only one small aspect of the latter. What's your basis to assert that it is the most important factor?

[deleted]

Re: Call Me by My Name: Deborah Abrams Kaplan

#39

Post by llamaz »

appleflaxen wrote: post #31
mikorym wrote: post #7

I think that modern religions and the way they learn to part with certain medieval ways is critical. The Jewish religion has been arguably successful with this, producing exceedingly prestigious scientists and mathematicians. The risk is always the "fundamental" factions.

I disagree that their religion produced them. Their genetics and their environment did, to varying degrees, but religion is only one small aspect of the latter. What's your basis to assert that it is the most important factor?

I'm not sure if genetics play as great a role as culture. IMO there is enough genetic variation in all cultures to produce Einsteins, but some cultures are able to cultivate that potential better than others.

You can't separate culture from religion, but culture is distinct from religion.

I'm actually really mad at Jordan Peterson for answering the Jewish Question and giving it a platform. I assume that's where you got your opinion from, but if you didn't, many will agree with you because of JBP.

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