321–330 of 341 posts
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I don't blame anyone, just filter out the too selfish ones early. If they can't go for win-win of both sides, they can try their moves elsewhere.
So how do you do that?
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You have it backwards. We are not trying to have cheap labor. We are trying to have more labor. However, the experienced people are limited resource, so the next step is to find inexperienced ones and train them. However, that doesn't work that way so easily. If you train someone for 6-12 months (during that time the trainee not only isn't making you any money, but other people, who otherwise would, are not either),…
> during that time the trainee not only isn't making you any money They're training full-time? They're not even doing junior-level work? Why are you paying them a salary then? > other people, who otherwise would, are not either Senior folks are getting valuable experience of mentoring and growing people too.
And that's the reason why the wage ramp up is slower, even after finishing the training.
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He is a loss in short term. He is supposed to be a net gain in long term. If he leaves prematurely, the loss is realized and the gain never happens. If he stays for long enough time, he is a net gain.
Again, if an entry level dev is a loss then don't hire entry level devs; your company does not adequately utilize them.
In this regard, unfortunately, we are using a proprietary platform and there is no chance to learn anything until you have access to the bits and docs. Due to that, fresh hires are completely useless to be utilized in any way, until they learn at least basics.
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So how do you do that?
Very carefully, during interviewing. Until now, it worked, even though mistakes happen. It is not scalable long-term, so we will have to find something else.
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First of all, they cannot force you to give them your current salary. My standard answer to such question is a slightly more polite version of "it's none of your bussiness". And if they don't want to provide a salary range, and ask you to come up with the number, then just give them your current salary +50% and see how they react. Of course you might then need to step down a little, and accept your current salary + 2…
They won’t try to force you. They’ll just lowball the first offer, and if you say “that’s not close to what I’m seeking” then they’ll say, “well we can’t read your mind, so it’s unreasonable for you to expect us to just repeatedly guess until we hit the number you want, so you need to outline your expectations.” If you still decline to discuss a range of expectations at that point, they will usually just drop interes…
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Very carefully, during interviewing. Until now, it worked, even though mistakes happen. It is not scalable long-term, so we will have to find something else.
Do you think someone is going to actually tell you that they are going to leave for greener pastures as soon as possible?
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Do you think someone is going to actually tell you that they are going to leave for greener pastures as soon as possible?
Of course not. But a good communicator can learn more from the communication than just what was said explicitly.
What I say at interview: “I love building things. I’ve been interested in computers since the mid 80s when I was writing 65C02 assembly language on an Apple //e. I guess you could say that I have always been a computer geek. I’m still amazed after all of this time that I get paid for doing something that I enjoy this much. On my way to work everyday and while I am working out I’m listening to $list_of_tech_podcasts. I try to spend at least 1 hour a day outside of work just keeping up with technology.”
Any developer with a modicum of emotional intelligence can get pass behavioral interview questions because really, the interviewerer doesn’t expect much from computer geeks and most developers.
How would you know that I am really just in it for the money? I’ve been on the interviewer and interviewee side of the table just as long or longer than most people who interview me. I’ve been through $big_company “how to interview candidates” training. Of course I know the answers you’re looking for.
Oh and the old geek who likes to continuously learn helps to answer the question am I keeping up with technology and why I am not in management.
Ok, so the guy is in the training and conference business. That would seem to skew his perspective. Usually the people who talk loudest about mentoring are clueless or are in the teaching business. In the real world, there is zero reward for mentoring. Moreover, if you do it, you might get fired and be replaced by the now cheaper mentee.
How can you mentor people if you are afraid of being fired or replaced by a "cheaper" mentee? To mentor people, you have to be a professional developer, at the first place. Professional developers achieve job security by doing great work and making themselves replaceable. Mediocre developers – by building knowledge silos.
Typical "Hacker" "News", where talkers dominate.
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Again, if an entry level dev is a loss then don't hire entry level devs; your company does not adequately utilize them.
Not every company is using popular, widely available tech, that folks can learn in their spare time. In this regard, unfortunately, we are using a proprietary platform and there is no chance to learn anything until you have access to the bits and docs. Due to that, fresh hires are completely useless to be utilized in any way, until they learn at least basics.
But all the same, any company should be able to make any dev useful from pretty much the very beginning. Whether it's rote refactoring work, research tasks that are too time consuming for more sr. folks, tasks that are in the domain of data entry that can be automated with simple scripts, low-hanging fruit bugs, etc. It's a failure of the org not to properly utilize the abilities of a smart person who knows how to program.
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With all due respect, if hiring an entry level dev is a loss for your business then perhaps don't hire them? A dev should be a net gain regardless of skill level. You pay them market when they need to be trained, you pay them market when they move up the skill food chain.
And as such, junior developers don't get hired, because the first 2-3 months of their career, a junior developer is at negative productivity, considering the work the team is doing to start getting them up to speed. Some of HN works in areas that are harder than the bog-standard CRUD app. So, do you give up on hiring junior developers at all? I believe our whole industry suffers if we come to that conclusion.
It's a failure of the organization to not utilize entry levels from the first week. At any company. After all, the FAANGs of the world have a different bar of entry.
People keep talking about this like you're literally training people how to program. That's BS. Every org has refactor work, tests to write, processes to improve, tasks to research, low hanging fruit bugs to tackle, systems to blueprint, all sorts of stuff that's a strain on the more sr. staff that's been pushed aside but needs to be addressed. You can strategically bring entry levels up in a way that's a net gain in any environment.