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Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

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Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#31

Post by krapp »

dang wrote: post #23
krapp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen people support racism, violence and child pornography on this site. More than once. Perhaps the difference is that, unlike 4chan, such things aren't routine, but I've found that Hacker News tends to segregate itself by subject rather than boards, so the toxic contingent shows up more often in certain threads than others. Hacker News' version of /pol/ would be most threads touching on the sort of subjects th…

This is the second time recently you've smeared the HN community and, by implication, us moderators like this. It isn't true, and I need to ask you to stop. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but if you stop for a minute and think of how utterly shocking and disgusting what you're imputing to us is, it won't be hard to see why we deeply don't appreciate it. People accuse us of all kinds of shit we don't do, but…

> but I would have expected something better from you than that last statement. A lot better.

That last statement happened[0], you were there. I didn't make it up for shock value. A member of this community in good standing but with a long history of belligerent and crypto-racist behavior (as well as high quality comments) managed to falter while toeing the line of civility.

And you banned him, and rightly so, but his beliefs are not an anomaly. There's a reason he felt comfortable voicing such an opinion here.

I'm not making any accusations towards the moderators, you don't see everything, you said so in that thread. But there is apparently a lot you don't see, if people's concerns about the toxicity in recent threads lead to a thread like this and your only reaction to it is to swipe at me for being rude.

And I was. And I was flagged. Fair game.

But I'm not wrong, and I'm far from the only one who's noticed that there are problems here which civility alone will not solve. People can be perfectly civil while poisoning a well.

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13056816

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#32

Post by dang »

krapp wrote: post #31
dang wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the second time recently you've smeared the HN community and, by implication, us moderators like this. It isn't true, and I need to ask you to stop. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but if you stop for a minute and think of how utterly shocking and disgusting what you're imputing to us is, it won't be hard to see why we deeply don't appreciate it. People accuse us of all kinds of shit we don't do, but…

> but I would have expected something better from you than that last statement. A lot better. That last statement happened[0], you were there. I didn't make it up for shock value. A member of this community in good standing but with a long history of belligerent and crypto-racist behavior (as well as high quality comments) managed to falter while toeing the line of civility. And you banned him, and rightly so, but hi…

You've glossed over the most important fact: we banned that user, as we've banned everyone we know of who's posted like that. If there are other accounts that you think have been posting egregiously, you're welcome to let us know. That would be a way you could actually help HN. But your insinuation that we allow shit like that to fester here is insulting. There's nothing we've worked harder at, often—speaking personally—to the edge of what my system can tolerate.

It's interesting, also, that you've had to reach for an example from 2-1/2 years ago. Nearly 7M posts have appeared on HN since then. That suggests that this community and its moderators are not as you say.

It's impossible to operate a large, anonymous public internet forum where no horrible comments appear. Demanding the impossible is not helpful. Armchair snark about how moderators fail to achieve the impossible may feel like a harmless internet pleasure, but consider the impact it has on the people you're attacking here. This place is fragile. The people who run it are under intense, unrelenting pressure. Kicking us in the gut is not a great idea if you don't want to make HN worse.

We can't control what people post, since anyone we've banned can just create a new account (and many do). All we can do is react to what gets posted. If there's some obvious thing we can do to dramatically clean up the site that we're not currently doing, I'd love to hear about it. But when you say that HN is no better than the worst of the internet except for the un-merit of a scum of politeness, I feel like you're trivializing the problems we face. Nor can I take that seriously, because it's patently untrue. If HN is no better than that, our hard work is useless—is that really what you mean to argue? And do you really mean to slag people who are trying hard to prevent a site you've been using daily for years (and for free) from degenerating into sludge? Because that's how your comment lands with me, and when we get that from experienced HN users, it makes me want to throw in the towel.

Nobody said civility would solve everything. It is a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. Incidentally, I've been thinking for the last few months that we should take that word out of the site guidelines. Its only visible effect seems to be that people get to accuse us of having that dumb idea about civility. There are deeper words we could use, which I would be happier to be associated with.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#33

Post by collapse »

drharby wrote: post #27
ChrisGranger wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To claim that Hacker News "is no different than 4chan", a site where one can routinely find the most vile posts of racism, violence, child pornography and so on is utter nonsense, and that is a fact, not merely my opinion.

Ok - aside from lets agree to disagree, im not equating the content are the same. I am equating the manner pf discourse and conversation flow. Its rather disingenuous of you to think people are claiming racism violence and child pornography here. Besides, 4channel is now heavily modded to be sfw since it has been acquired from moot and the owner is trying to drive ad revenue. It isnt 2008 - and please again, stop pas…

>Its rather disingenuous of you to think people are claiming racism violence and child pornography here

krapp did that in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19655230. You might need to turn showdead on in your profile to see it.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#34

Post by krapp »

dang wrote: post #32
krapp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I would have expected something better from you than that last statement. A lot better. That last statement happened[0], you were there. I didn't make it up for shock value. A member of this community in good standing but with a long history of belligerent and crypto-racist behavior (as well as high quality comments) managed to falter while toeing the line of civility. And you banned him, and rightly so, but hi…

You've glossed over the most important fact: we banned that user, as we've banned everyone we know of who's posted like that. If there are other accounts that you think have been posting egregiously, you're welcome to let us know. That would be a way you could actually help HN. But your insinuation that we allow shit like that to fester here is insulting. There's nothing we've worked harder at, often—speaking persona…

I apologize. I went over the line at the end of my first comment. It's caused you to radically misinterpret my intent, and that's my fault.

I'm sick of seeing what should be perfectly good threads be pulled down into the cesspool because of bigotry and trolling, and lately there seems to be a lot of it. You're by no means the only person who has gotten frustrated by this place. Sometimes I want to lash out because this place makes me angry. That's probably a sign that I spend far too much time here.

I'm not blaming the mods for anything - as I said in my previous comment. I never meant to imply that I thought your efforts were useless or futile. I know what a thankless task moderation can be.

You seem to be in that mode that other posters get into where anything I say is probably going to be interpreted as a personal insult, cherry-picked or semantically twisted against me, so since I can't win for losing anyway -- yes, the worst of HN is no better than a more polite version of the worst of 4chan, and, despite itself, the best of HN is often not the best of the internet. That shouldn't be a surprise, given how much overlap there is in membership between here and other sites, and how diverse peoples' beliefs can be about what constitutes good discussion.

The high bar is not getting higher, but the low bar does seem to be getting lower. I don't know what the solution is, but there is a problem.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#35

Post by krapp »

lightedman wrote: post #25
krapp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize for the offense, I know you care about this community, as I do, but it's not beyond criticism. I don't believe I've smeared it so much as described a part of it with more honesty than is civil, possibly some hyperbole, but not deceit. I've seen everything I mentioned in my comment, and noticed that such views seem to be gaining in prominence here, they just mask themselves behind politeness. But I will st…

You can ignore dang, he's not going to be part of this community for much longer, and I'm working to ensure that. Turns out he's got a very very NASTY history and I'm having a lot of fun digging it up.

You're a perfect example of what is going wrong with this community.

Maybe I am too, to an extent, but definitely you, and whoever vouched for your comments.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#36

Post by lightedman »

pxue wrote: post #16
Lausbert wrote: post #13

Does anyone now, why this one is flagged? I don‘t want to contribute to discussion yet and I always tell people about the amazing and open discussions on HN, but seeing this thread flagged feels very strange.

Because this is HN. It's a forum about tech, startups, and entrepreneurship. If you want polarizing politics go to Reddit.

Hey Dang, prove otherwise. You have to reach for the hardest things to justify your actions. Are you too much of a coward to face your criticism?

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#37

Post by lightedman »

Lausbert wrote: post #13

Does anyone now, why this one is flagged? I don‘t want to contribute to discussion yet and I always tell people about the amazing and open discussions on HN, but seeing this thread flagged feels very strange.

This thread is flagged because Dang is a COWARD like the rest of the YCombinator crew.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#38

Post by dang »

krapp wrote: post #34
dang wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've glossed over the most important fact: we banned that user, as we've banned everyone we know of who's posted like that. If there are other accounts that you think have been posting egregiously, you're welcome to let us know. That would be a way you could actually help HN. But your insinuation that we allow shit like that to fester here is insulting. There's nothing we've worked harder at, often—speaking persona…

I apologize. I went over the line at the end of my first comment. It's caused you to radically misinterpret my intent, and that's my fault. I'm sick of seeing what should be perfectly good threads be pulled down into the cesspool because of bigotry and trolling, and lately there seems to be a lot of it. You're by no means the only person who has gotten frustrated by this place. Sometimes I want to lash out because th…

Well, thanks for reaching out across the gap. Your intent to do that registers, and I appreciate it.

For me, the most significant word in my comment was pressure. I'm sure I was partly reacting out of that. It's not yet possible not to.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#39

Post by dang »

krapp wrote: post #35
lightedman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can ignore dang, he's not going to be part of this community for much longer, and I'm working to ensure that. Turns out he's got a very very NASTY history and I'm having a lot of fun digging it up.

You're a perfect example of what is going wrong with this community. Maybe I am too, to an extent, but definitely you, and whoever vouched for your comments.

I unkilled that comment.

Re: Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

#40

Post by krapp »

dang wrote: post #39
krapp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a perfect example of what is going wrong with this community. Maybe I am too, to an extent, but definitely you, and whoever vouched for your comments.

I unkilled that comment.

Why?!

All of lightedman's comments here are terrible, and they're just threatening to dox you here like some angsty edgelord, which is absolutely not acceptable. It deserves to be flagged, as does my response, to be honest. I shouldn't have fallen for the bait.

But still, anyone else would likely lose their vouching privileges for that.

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