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Who's Behind Huawei?

latimes.com

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Re: Who's Behind Huawei?

#61

Post by bad_user »

blotter_paper wrote: post #52
bad_user wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s very shortsighted. First of all the spying that your own government does has to be lawful, whereas in the eyes of a foreign government you have no rights. Also in your own country you have legal ways to fight the spying conducted by your government, whereas you can do absolutely nothing to a foreign government. I’m an EU citizen and this is precisely why I got mad about the Snowden revelations. Because under U…

>That’s very shortsighted. First of all the spying that your own government does has to be lawful, whereas in the eyes of a foreign government you have no rights. Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment to the US constitution? If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly, that's not how the world work…

>> "Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment"

Yes, they showed a clear violation.

>> "If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly."

Sorry, but your conclusion does not follow. Yes, I do believe that in a country with the rule of law my rights are reasonably well protected. Yes, some state agencies can break that law, that's why you've got the checks and balances system. Countries like China fall short in all departments.

And the Snowden leaks couldn't have happened in China, so presenting it as proof that Western countries are as bad is what's silly.

>> "that's not how the world works"

Compared with most people here, I was actually born under a communist regime that took surveillance and suppression of speech to a whole new level (that 1984 novel was actually more realistic than what happened under the Iron Curtain), so I probably know how the world works better than you ;-)

Re: Who's Behind Huawei?

#62

Post by blotter_paper »

bad_user wrote: post #61
blotter_paper wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That’s very shortsighted. First of all the spying that your own government does has to be lawful, whereas in the eyes of a foreign government you have no rights. Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment to the US constitution? If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly, that's not how the world work…

>> " Do you think the Snowden leaks showed clear violations of the 4th amendment " Yes, they showed a clear violation. >> " If so, this whole argument is null and void. Believing that a surveillance state will follow it's own laws is just plain silly. " Sorry, but your conclusion does not follow. Yes, I do believe that in a country with the rule of law my rights are reasonably well protected. Yes, some state agencies…

>Yes, some state agencies can break that law, that's why you've got the checks and balances system.

Nobody served time for breaking the rules. They act like they're obeying their interpretation of the rules now, but since we know they lied for years and nobody was punished it would be silly to believe them. Do you think the checks and balances of the US system did their job in this case?

>Countries like China fall short in all departments.

I'll agree that they censor more. I'm not convinced that their checks and balances against illegal surveillance are better, since I see no believable evidence of US checks and balances working in this department.

>And the Snowden leaks couldn't have happened in China,

Snowden flew to China before letting the leaks drop. Could a Chinese national not leave the country and drop a leak? Why is this impossible? I'll buy that news coverage would be more censored, but that isn't your claim.

>so presenting it as proof that Western countries are as bad is what's silly.

This doesn't follow regardless, if it did then any leak of any abuses whatsoever couldn't be used as proof simply because it was allowed to be published. Is this the only metric we judge governments by?

>so I probably know how the world works better than you ;-)

Relatively novel experiences can be useful, but it would be foolish to mistake them for wisdom.

Re: Who's Behind Huawei?

#63

Post by unparagoned »

ajross wrote: post #60
luckylion wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, but that might also just be a rationalization for protecting your interests which are generally aligned with those of your country. There are many variables, but I don't think that "China mistreats it's people" isn't high on the list for "We need to keep Huawei out and rely on US technology only". Technological and economic influence/power are much more important, Realpolitik wins every time.

And I repeat, I remain genuinely horrified that the same people who rail on incesantly (and justifiably!) about US abuses are willing to rationalize, explain away and ignore those of the PRC. Are you absolutely sure it's me doing the "rationalization for protecting your interests which are generally aligned with those of your country"?

Yes

Re: Who's Behind Huawei?

#64

Post by luckylion »

blotter_paper wrote: post #58
luckylion wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I believe so, yes. When you have two competing powers, neither can abuse their power as much. Ideally, it wouldn't be just two, but two are better than one. If the EU could emancipate itself from the US, that would be a very welcome addition, but I don't see that happening anytime soon because the EU is made up of many interests and has no single government (and I'd love to have less EU, but for other rea…

I took GP to be asking a question with regards to surveillance specifically. I think this might be a realm where competition brings an arms-race with negative consequences for citizens. I think China having data gives the US more of a reason to have data, and vice versa. That being said, the NSA might start disclosing vulnerabilities quicker if China stepped up their exploit game.

Possibly, but so far the NSA didn't show any restraint, so how big is the risk that they get more appetite? On the other hand, it might well be that "you spy on us? we'll buy from China then" makes them take it down a notch, and the same will apply to China. Choice limits the power the supplier has over the buyer.

Of course, it could also lead to the two global powers having an agreement, splitting up the world and nothing really changes, but if there's a chance, there is hope.

Re: Who's Behind Huawei?

#65

Post by charlescearl »

ajross wrote: post #39
charlescearl wrote: post #3

When AT&T has so willingly handed over call data to the U.S. intelligence agencies for decades, even assisting in the analysis of said data, I have to question the assault on Huawei by U.S. media.

You should absolutely question the US intelligence community and its relationship with the business community. And I'm sure you do. You should also be suspicious of China, for exactly the same reason. And the fact that you explicitly refuse to (and get upvoted to the top of the topic by the HN community!) is... well, it's fucking horrifying. Seriously folks? You're so pissed at the NSA that the PRC is a "good guy" to…

I have two sets of personal experiences that cause me concern when I hear the “Huawei as PRC front company” line in articles. As a young engineer at AT&T in the late ‘80s a senior engineer who was consulting with our small team broke it down for me that the DSP algorithms we were working on were probably being used for eavesdropping. He recused himself from the team after this discovery and this event I suppose left me a bit jaded.

Some 20 years later, I happened to meet some of the Huawei employees in their Botswana office while there on an extended visit. Seemed like the typical big co. field office. The office manager was so annoyed when the first of the Huawei stories came out. She responded with words to the effect “why all the U.S. hate? Why is it that a successful Chinese company can’t just be successful?”

I don't doubt that there’s a lot of questionable stuff going on at Huawei. This happens with companies operating in the confines of countries with extreme geopolitical goals. Those of you that have worked on federal contracts probably can attest to the murky relationship between government and company interests.

In terms of the human rights of PRC vs US, I am not a deep student of PRC. I will say that as a U.S. citizen I’ve experienced a sliding scale of human rights. The egregious human rights violations meted on on non-US citizens in Vietnam, GWOT, the current U.S. southern border situation, etc has been documented. The human rights violations of African Americans, indigenous Americans, LGBT Americans — these may be of less degree than that of PRC towards its citizens including ethnic minorities, but they are shameful nevertheless and painful (as I and many people that I care for have experienced) and demand a resolution.

The American citizens do have the rights to demand better accountability of their intelligence agency practices by voting in people who will enforce those practices. For several administrations running, they seem to have abandoned that responsibility.

Re: Who's Behind Huawei?

#66

Post by andybak »

Spooky23 wrote: post #42
andybak wrote: post #38

> Most Americans have never heard of Huawei, in part because it has been obsessed with secrecy since its founding in 1987 They're not terribly good at this secrecy lark, then. The phone sitting on my desk has got "Huawei" written on the front in big letters and has the word "Huawei" filling the screen every time it boots.

Few people heard of them until they were making knockoff Cisco devices 15-20 years ago.

Yes but the article used the present tense.
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